Disappearing threads

[Alan Medic]

In what circumstances would you be gently correcting someone cella? I see the use of the words girls, women or ladies as being pretty much the same and find it hard to comprehend why anyone would be bothered by the usage of one or the other. They are just words.

[Quia Differt]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

>

>

> I was told (by a postgrad tutor who returned an

> essay with every use of the word crossed out and

> "woman" substituted) that "lady" implies certain

> standards of behaviour - meekness, gentility,

> decorum etc - that women don't necessarily want

> imposed upon them, in a way that "gentleman"

> doesn't, if that implies anything it just implies

> one's a bit of a toff. After arguing about it for

> half an hour I came to see her point of view,

> though I still find it difficult in speech not to

> say lady instead of woman, just a habit.

Why is it then that I and , doubtless, a multitude of other Men have often had someone say to them, after a perceived good deed, " you are a Gentlemen ! "...

Have they all been calling me a Toff all along ?

[civilservant]

nicely said, cella, especially this bit "It's more significant I feel when, if gently corrected, the user makes a big issue out of it - speaks volumes."

and pace RH's tutor, saying 'gentleman' doesn't imply that one's referring to a toff, any more than mealy-mouthedly referring to the 'lavatory' elevates the purpose of that facility.

[diable rouge]

Pour les dames de la maison...

 

[Alan Medic]

civilservant Wrote:

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> nicely said, cella, especially this bit "It's more

> significant I feel when, if gently corrected, the

> user makes a big issue out of it - speaks

> volumes."

You make this sound like it's an everyday occurrence. Who are these people boldly using the word 'lady' who don't like being corrected?

[cella]

It's just dated language really and language is important as everything evolves. Men and women - fine aren't they?

[Loz]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> Now have a go at 'mansplaining', RH!

Disgraceful word. Entirely sexist and offensive.

[rendelharris]

Quia Differt Wrote:

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> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Alan Medic Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> >

> > I was told (by a postgrad tutor who returned an

> > essay with every use of the word crossed out

> and

> > "woman" substituted) that "lady" implies

> certain

> > standards of behaviour - meekness, gentility,

> > decorum etc - that women don't necessarily want

> > imposed upon them, in a way that "gentleman"

> > doesn't, if that implies anything it just

> implies

> > one's a bit of a toff. After arguing about it

> for

> > half an hour I came to see her point of view,

> > though I still find it difficult in speech not

> to

> > say lady instead of woman, just a habit.

>

> Why is it then that I and , doubtless, a multitude

> of other Men have often had someone say to them,

> after a perceived good deed, " you are a Gentlemen

> ! "...

>

> Have they all been calling me a Toff all along ?

I used the wrong word, I meant a good chap rather than an aristo.

[civilservant]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> You make this sound like it's an everyday occurrence. Who are these people boldly using the word 'lady' who don't like being corrected?

i occasionally (and always reluctantly) refer to 'ladies' if i think that the women i'm referring to would feel slighted by being called 'women' - but i'm very happy to be corrected at any time

as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know find it such a useful word, it helps them be clear about the behaviour they're objecting to - and believe me, there are mansplainers lurking everywhere out there

[JohnL]

Quia Differt Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Alan Medic Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> >

> > I was told (by a postgrad tutor who returned an

> > essay with every use of the word crossed out

> and

> > "woman" substituted) that "lady" implies

> certain

> > standards of behaviour - meekness, gentility,

> > decorum etc - that women don't necessarily want

> > imposed upon them, in a way that "gentleman"

> > doesn't, if that implies anything it just

> implies

> > one's a bit of a toff. After arguing about it

> for

> > half an hour I came to see her point of view,

> > though I still find it difficult in speech not

> to

> > say lady instead of woman, just a habit.

>

> Why is it then that I and , doubtless, a multitude

> of other Men have often had someone say to them,

> after a perceived good deed, " you are a Gentlemen

> ! "...

>

> Have they all been calling me a Toff all along ?

Recently it's back to "young man" - I don't mind but sometimes they're half my age :)

[rendelharris]

civilservant Wrote:

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> as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know find

> it such a useful word, it helps them be clear

> about the behaviour they're objecting to - and

> believe me, there are mansplainers lurking

> everywhere out there

But I still want to know how I'm apparently a "mansplainer" when I was explaining something to another man?

[Alan Medic]

This is interesting in light of the recent comments. The are the clubs participating in next season's Women's football league.

[cella]

Maybe just accept different women want different things without questioning it.

[Robert Poste's Child]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> civilservant Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know

> find

> > it such a useful word, it helps them be clear

> > about the behaviour they're objecting to - and

> > believe me, there are mansplainers lurking

> > everywhere out there

>

> But I still want to know how I'm apparently a

> "mansplainer" when I was explaining something to

> another man?

RH, the post you replied to quoted me (a woman) and asked for more information about something relating to women's experience (in this case, being called a lady).

'Mansplaining' means a man explaining what a woman means or experiences rather than treating her as an equal who can speak for herself.

Does that help?

[rendelharris]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > civilservant Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know

> > find

> > > it such a useful word, it helps them be clear

> > > about the behaviour they're objecting to -

> and

> > > believe me, there are mansplainers lurking

> > > everywhere out there

> >

> > But I still want to know how I'm apparently a

> > "mansplainer" when I was explaining something

> to

> > another man?

>

> RH, the post you replied to quoted me (a woman)

> and asked for more information about something

> relating to women's experience (in this case,

> being called a lady).

>

> 'Mansplaining' means a man explaining what a woman

> means or experiences rather than treating her as

> an equal who can speak for herself.

>

> Does that help?

Well it explains it, not sure it particularly helps. Seriously? This is a discussion forum, anyone's entitled to answer people's questions, even if superficially addressed to another poster. I saw AM's question, realised I had some relevant experience of the matter under discussion and so answered him. I'm sorry if you think that that's in some way me behaving in a sexist manner or attemting to usurp you; on the other hand I think it's utterly, utterly absurd that you should take that view of it.

Come to that, I asked civilservant a question above, not you, but you've chosen to answer it. Oddly I don't see this as transgressing any rules or trying to undermine anyone, it's what happens in discussions on discussion forums.

Seriously?

[Robert Poste's Child]

I picked you up on it because it was relevant to the point under discussion - women's perception of how we are spoken about and to.

[rendelharris]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> I picked you up on it because it was relevant to

> the point under discussion - women's perception of

> how we are spoken about and to.

And fair enough if you see it like that, to me, in the context of a discussion group on the internet (rather than me leaning across you in the pub and not allowing you to speak or similar) it seems a pretty hair-trigger reaction.

[civilservant]

civilservant Wrote:

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> as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know find it such a useful word, it helps them be clear

> about the behaviour they're objecting to - and believe me, there are mansplainers lurking everywhere out there

RH, that's my post above, and i was actually responding to AM

what makes you think i'm accusing you of anything? of course, if the cap fits, do feel free

[rendelharris]

civilservant Wrote:

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> civilservant Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > as for 'mansplaining', all the women i know find

> it such a useful word, it helps them be clear

> > about the behaviour they're objecting to - and

> believe me, there are mansplainers lurking

> everywhere out there

>

> RH, that's my post above, and i was actually

> responding to AM

> what makes you think i'm accusing you of anything?

> of course, if the cap fits, do feel free

I didn't say you were, I was throwing out a general query as RPC had said I was, and you seemed informed on the matter. And the cap does not fit so I will decline your offer.

[Robert Poste's Child]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I picked you up on it because it was relevant

> to

> > the point under discussion - women's perception

> of

> > how we are spoken about and to.

>

> And fair enough if you see it like that, to me, in

> the context of a discussion group on the internet

> (rather than me leaning across you in the pub and

> not allowing you to speak or similar) it seems a

> pretty hair-trigger reaction.

In a more general context you would (dare I say 'do'...) get away with it but when you choose to do it in the context of a pretty fundamental feminist question you should expect a reaction!

[rendelharris]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> rendelharris Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I picked you up on it because it was relevant

> > to

> > > the point under discussion - women's

> perception

> > of

> > > how we are spoken about and to.

> >

> > And fair enough if you see it like that, to me,

> in

> > the context of a discussion group on the

> internet

> > (rather than me leaning across you in the pub

> and

> > not allowing you to speak or similar) it seems

> a

> > pretty hair-trigger reaction.

>

> In a more general context you would (dare I say

> 'do'...) get away with it but when you choose to

> do it in the context of a pretty fundamental

> feminist question you should expect a reaction!

Let's give up - well I'm giving up - on to-ing and fro-ing about this. On a public discussion forum, somebody asked a question. Because I had the question in, um, question explained to me very well by a feminist university lecturer I thought sharing what she told me might be interesting and contribute to the discussion, so I did. If that makes me a "mansplainer" then la-di-da, sorry but I'm not going to beat myself up about joining in a discussion in good faith with no intent to patronise, demean, interrupt or anything else, I just felt I had something interesting to contribute.

ETA with your entirely unfounded assumption that I "get away with it" in general, you do realise you're insulting a lot of women by assuming that they would let me - and trust me, if you knew my mother, wife, sisters and friends you'd know I wouldn't dare to try.

[Quia Differt]

cella Wrote:

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> Maybe just accept different women want different

> things without questioning it.

I know every single time the exact way every single Female I know wants to be addressed and even, on introduction, every single Female I am about to meet...........all I do is look at my crystal ball it's 100% foolproof.

Crystal Ball did let me down last week though.I had met a friend around 50 times previously at New Eltham and in a text she said meet me at Eltham station. I queried this and she got quite irate and in big capitals repeated ELTHAM adding if I had meany NEW ELTHAM I would have said so.....I should have known that THIS time, for the 1st time ever, she was arriving at a different station :)

[cella]

....holes....digging....

[Quia Differt]

cella Wrote:

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> ....holes....digging....

If that was addressed to me though I have learnt ! I USED to think the three little words Women wanted to hear were " I Love You" but they are not. They, actually, ARE " You Are Right! "......my life is so much easier when I agree with everything my Female things say or do. Problem is I do this all too rarely.

Summarised , admirably, by a Former Boyfriend of a long-term Ladyfriend who asked her, sweetly, " Am I allowed to disagree ? " lol

[cella]

Quia Differt Wrote:

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> cella Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ....holes....digging....

>

> If that was addressed to me though I have learnt !

> I USED to think the three little words Women

> wanted to hear were " I Love You" but they are

> not. They, actually, ARE " You Are Right!

> "......my life is so much easier when I agree with

> everything my Female things say or do. Problem is

> I do this all too rarely.

>

> Summarised , admirably, by a Former Boyfriend of a

> long-term Ladyfriend who asked her, sweetly, " Am

> I allowed to disagree ? " lol

Keeping it going...are the caps just in case we hadn't spotted...?