Racist Bigot shouting bile on tram...

[Laddy Muck]

J'adore le Piat D'or.

[Fabricio the Guido]

I actually used the word 'trope' as a semiotic tool to describe a series of ideas, debates, rhetorical arguments employed by certain groups to advance their cause. I am not simply discussing an idea but a style of presenting an argument which attempts to circumvent logic through rhetorical devices. "The straw man argument." as you correctly point out.

Whilst ACM might feel that he is a lone wolf with iconoclastic libertarian arguments of some description,, I am sorry to shatter that self delusion because if you lie with dogs you are likely to get fleas.

For example, turning to the free speech argument: you cannot use your enjoyment of the right to free speech to endanger my life or the right to life of others. Where rights conflict there has to be a priority between rights. So not all rights are absolutes, some rights must be qualified. Incitement to racial hatred is a crime for that reason.

I want to resist the temptation of saying more because if you read my original post, very, slowly, you will get some of my points.

[Otta]

I've only just realised this is a separate thread.

Doh!

[DJKillaQueen]

Ted Max Wrote:

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> I know France and Paris very well.

>

> Ha ha.

>

> All. The. Talents.

I was in a relationship with une francaise for years, so there Max :P ..........may even have seen Nette down the Bois de Boulogne but no money changed hands ;) (I think)

[acm]

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[Loz]

Fabricio the Guido Wrote:

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> For example, turning to the free speech argument: you cannot use your enjoyment of the right to free

> speech to endanger my life or the right to life of others. Where rights conflict there has to be a

> priority between rights. So not all rights are absolutes, some rights must be qualified.

> Incitement to racial hatred is a crime for that reason.

Although, judging by your first post, you seem to think that only some racial hatred is a crime?

[acm]

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[El Pibe]

But words can and do persuade people to physically hurt people, or not hire people, or not rent a place to people.

[Fabricio the Guido]

I wouldn't punch you or encourage anyone to punch you just because I thought you are an idiot with idiotic views. I wouldn't expect anyone to physically attack you for holding your views. It is interesting that you assume that any confrontation must lead to a physical one. How about I just call you out for what you are?

The video you posted ended by stating that "Anti racism is just another word for anti-white." If you do not support such groups why do you find their arguments so appealing?

"I do not support the EDL. I do not support the BNP. I do like to think I understand why these organisations exist." You understand why these organisations exists but you cannot see the point of Black Police Association?

You don't have to be a card carrying member of any of those groups; besides they are not outlawed in this country. However, despite not carrying a card, your style of argument, and the reasoning or lack thereof, exposes you for what you really are.

I am not ashamed of being wrongly called a hypocrite. As a liberal, I can be. You on the other hand seem to protest vigorously when your ideas are shown to be the product of certain disreputable schools of thought.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think there is a gray area with 'freedom of speech' and perhaps no right or wrong answer to it. Definitely words can cause damage, hurt, upset. Bullying for example often manisfests itself as words. Libel and slander is also the product of words. A viewpoint is just that, a viewpoint. And basis in fact usually requires more than words to validate a viewpoint (this is what the law relies on of course).

Yes, we have freedom of speech and should be thankful for it, but ultimately we also have responsibility to not abuse that freedom and hurt others.

[DJKillaQueen]

I wouldn't punch you or encourage anyone to punch you just because I thought you are an idiot with idiotic views.

Arrrghhhh.....and another thread starts the descent into the pursuit of personal attack.

I think acm has been clear in what his viewpoint is. Maybe you agree Guido, maybe you don't, but it is possible to discuss it without resorting to insult surely? It's just a forum...chill....

[Fabricio the Guido]

I did not call him an idiot. Read the sentence again. I am perfectly chilled. I like good debates.:))

[El Pibe]

I'm afraid that ignorant hate is not simply expressing an opinion.

If we live in a society where we tolerate people opining that this minoity race is subhuman or that minority religion is evil then inevitably leads to that sense of impunity stretching to going out 'paki-bashing' or killing a young man at a bus-stop for the colour of his skin or having an instiutionally racist bias in an organisation who should be safeguarding all its citizens.

We are improving and we're better than many places, but there is a long way to go.

The key word, that DJKQ repeats here is responsiblity.

A free society places an onus on it's citizens to exercise its freedoms responsibly. If people abuse those rights then I'm afraid those freedoms have to be limited.

I'm afraid to say that given that our society hasn't proved itself free of the problems of racism and hate crimes, then we cannot all individually yet be trusted with those freedoms.

And I really don't see this as biased against the whites. Plenty of muslim preachers of hate have been kicked out or banned (except the one's Ken Livingstone or that idiot George Galloway likes), and plenty of organisations that share those hateful opinions have also been banned.

[acm]

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[Chippy Minton]

From this thread: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,736932,740068#msg-740068

it cannot be denied there is a growing problem with Islamification in this country

and

I am certainly recognising the legitimate concerns of a huge number of people in this country, and for those people organisations like the EDL and the BNP are the only groups that do represent them.

Followed by a link to a Youtube video which was uploaded by a user called EDLraw.

[acm]

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[Chippy Minton]

Whatever.

I'm not going down this road with you again.

The fact remains you recognise the EDL and BNP's "legitimate concerns" and you think it is appropriate to post links to EDL videos to support your argument.

[acm]

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[DJKillaQueen]

That telegraph article is a bit sensationalist I think. Yes there are islamic communities that share a culture but there is hardly an islamification of the entire nation taking place. Christianity and Catholicism are not without their own forms of extremism either.

[ibilly99]

A more nuanced but similar cry of rage from the Telegraph Empathy has fled the inner city, and it?s time for me to follow