June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston

[JohnL]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

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> Greene King would not buy a sub lease though.

>

> They would buy a freehold pub with no lease at all

> on it - i.e. no lease to enterprise and no

> sub-lease to the pub manager.

>

> That seems to be the most likely scenario here. If

> the lease with Enterprise expires in June and the

> sub lease also expires the whole operation could

> be sold as one. I would guess that might be worth

> about ?5m.

>

> If I could cash in for that (after 15 years of

> hard work!) then personally I would let my lease

> expire and take no action to 'save' the pub.

That would imply it reverts to the freeholder after June (and I note your last paragraph :) ).

[nxjen]

?If the lease with Enterprise expires in June and the sub lease also expires the whole operation could be sold as one. I would guess that might be worth about ?5m.?

As far as I can make out, Jamie?s lease with Enterprise IS the sub-lease which is due to expire in June. I haven?t seen anything about Enterprise?s lease with the freeholder expiring soon though happy to be corrected.

[mrwb]

It must be the sub lease as James seems to own the freehold?

Presumably once Enterprise lease expires they will take over again? Could be long time though.

Very odd situation with the recent kitchen refurb etc

[nxjen]

Freehold owned by Jamie and Paul Rigby who

Lease to

Enterprise who

Sub-lease to Jamie and this sub-lease is due to expire in June.

[QueenMab]

There's now a petition you can sign...

https://www.change.org/p/enterprise-inns-save-the-palmerston-east-dulwich-se22

[Mick Mac]

nxjen Wrote:

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> Freehold owned by Jamie and Paul Rigby who

>

> Lease to

>

> Enterprise who

>

> Sub-lease to Jamie and this sub-lease is due to

> expire in June.

I'm wondering if this originated as a "sale and leaseback" - would only be the case if EI were the Freeholder before Jamie - and dont know how to check this

15 years ago:

EI (tbc) owned pub freehold, but have no tax deductible expense.

EI sell FH to Jamie, on the understanding that he will then offer to lease it back to them on the long lease.

EI get cash from the sale of the freehold

EI's annual lease cost to Jamie is tax deductible - they have therefore created an ongoing tax deductible expense out of an asset they previously owned

EI creates a sub lease to Jamie out of the long lease, perhpas 15 years - all is friendly

EI decides after 15 years not to renew the short lease. As freeholder who has granted a long lease Jamie has no control over this

EI now free to either create a new short sub lease for the remainder of the long lease term to a new venture, or take over the running of the pub themselves under the long lease

If EI feel that they had undercharged for the original 15 year sub lease, and will charge significantly more for the new sub lease they may have offered this renewal to Jamie at a rate that was too expensive for him to continue - or they may have just, as is assumed, not wanted to continue working with him, full stop.

[bob]

Well put MM

Bob S

[Trevor Moore]

Penguin68 says:

"Where the commercial lease has time-terminated the freeholder has no requirement to extend the lease or offer the leaseholder a new lease." That's not right in all circumstances, but not worth a teach-in here...

This all sounds very like what happened to another EI tenant I know. EI are commercially as sharp as razorblades. A petition won't help, unfortunately, because they're solely about getting sufficient cashflow to service their humonguous debt. They won't GAF about the community aspects. Only money talks.

[Abe_froeman]

Looks like EI are becoming quite vindictive in all of this row

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxehbI1nofX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Seems they've granted a new lease to a vehicle called "Old Spot Pubs" which is actually just a subsidiary of Enterprise Inns.

[tiddles]

Well there are so many other fabulous pubs on lordy lane - after giving the palmerston crew a great send off, boycott

The new pub?

[Penguin68]

Unless you believe the new tenants were a direct party to the 'doing down' of the Palmerston tenants then you damage an I innocent party by your proposed boycott without impacting the presumed 'guilty'.

[tiddles]

yes fair point...

[Abe_froeman]

The new tenants are part of the Enterprise Inns corporate group according this: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11217220/persons-with-significant-control

[mrwb]

Yes it's all here:

https://www.eigroupplc.com/en/media/press-releases/2019/Old-Spot-Pub-Company-opens-new-sites.html

What a strange story this seems to be.

Seems EI have debt mountain which is probably why they're doing it.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/ei-sells-348m-pubs-portfolio-to-cut-debt-mountain-a4036406.html

[derwentgrove]

Having looked at the other Old Spot pubs mentioned in the press release it seems that the food menu is fashioned according to each location. Unsurprisingly the pub in Farnham Common appears to have a food offering closest to the current Palmerston whereas the Limehouse offering is distinctly pub grub. I guess we have to hope the ED offering will be closer to the Farnham Common end of the spectrum!

http://lgn1390837841.site-fusion.co.uk/restaurant-menu

[JohnL]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like EI are becoming quite vindictive in all

> of this row

>

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BxehbI1nofX/?utm_sourc

> e=ig_web_copy_link

>

> Seems they've granted a new lease to a vehicle

> called "Old Spot Pubs" which is actually just a

> subsidiary of Enterprise Inns.

I agree on the pinkish colour with one of the comments - It's a great colour :)

[TonyQuinn]

The whole thing is a 21st century swindle. And frankly a disgrace. How can a successful and much-loved part of the community be taken away so easily.

May I bring everyone's attention to what these guys who are apparently taking over say they're about.

Dave Ford, who is behind this joint venture with Ei that is taking over the Palmerston, said as recently as February, the following.

"We tend to take on pubs that have been shut for a while with the intention of giving the community back their local."

You're a hypocrite Mr Ford. If you want to give, as you say "the community back their local," give us back the Palmerston.

Until that time, I hope I see no one in whatever emerges. You don't have to call it a boycott. It's standing up for the community and its people.

I suggest that when Mr. Ford's crew turn up, we throw this line back in his face, time and time again.

[alice]

It will be packed.

[tiddles]

With tony quinn on this

[goldilocks]

Not even sure that a 'boycott' will be necessary. Looking at 'The Star of the East' the food offering is nothing like the quality of the Palmerston, so think that it won't necessary attract the same people. Will be interesting to see if there is a market for the middle of the road pubco pub food offering? Feels a bit like the pub food bit is well catered for, but I guess we will see once it opens. It reminds me a little of when Adventure Bar moved in, totally misjudged the market and closed down in a relatively short period of time.

[JohnL]

goldilocks Wrote:

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> Not even sure that a 'boycott' will be necessary.

> Looking at 'The Star of the East' the food

> offering is nothing like the quality of the

> Palmerston, so think that it won't necessary

> attract the same people. Will be interesting to

> see if there is a market for the middle of the

> road pubco pub food offering? Feels a bit like

> the pub food bit is well catered for, but I guess

> we will see once it opens. It reminds me a little

> of when Adventure Bar moved in, totally misjudged

> the market and closed down in a relatively short

> period of time.

Adventure Bar should have worked at that point but now it would be Peckham :)

[mrwb]

Let's wait and see. Ultimately this is a commercial dispute, we don't have full details of.

Does seem very odd current owners own the freehold though. Presumably they'll be able take it back eventually.

[Jim1234]

Will the Palmerston not be looking to reopen at a different site?

[tiddles]

Cannot think of any availble sites on lordship lane - they are local so would want to stay in the area where their loyal customers are

[goldilocks]

They could wait for Young?s to give up on the cherry tree and move in there! Would actually work as a pub AND a dining room!