23rd March - ?Put It To The People March? - central London

[Angelina]

What do you want him to do?

I get the feeling anything would be open to your criticism.

[diable rouge]

Angelina Wrote:

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> What do you want him to do?

Fook off out of the country like he said he would do if Brexit is a disaster...which it is, whatever side you're on.

[Angelina]

perhaps he can take the rest of them with him

[robbin]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Passiflora Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Not sure what you are trying to say JoeLeg or

> what

> > YMMV means?

> >

> > Leave voters voted to leave the EU by over one

> > point two million voters in 2016 so that is not

> a

> > 'skin of their teeth vote'.

>

>

> 4% IS by the skin of the teeth. If you factor in

> (as tiddles points out) the electorate that didn't

> vote at all (almost a third) then that drops even

> lower. Your offense at use of that term

> demonstrates my point perfectly in fact. The

> reason why there is such a bitter and entrenched

> ongoing battle over this is precisely because of

> that very narrow margin of difference. And also as

> tiddles writes, Quorums are par for the course (no

> pun intended) in all kinds of democratic

> processes.

>

> A more honest campaign might have led to a

> different result. Ever thought about that?

What about the huge number of people that voted to remain based on a pack of George Osborne and Cameron's lies? The nonsense coming from them was plainly project fear, no less and has been proven to be false by events that followed (or didn't follow, as the case may be). How many millions do you think were taken in on that side? We will never know how the lies on each side affected the result in terms of numbers, but it is blindingly obvious that to refer only to one side being misled is utterly misleading. BTW I voted to remain and I admit I was not completely taken in by the obvious lies from government remainers but I am certain many people would have been.

[JohnL]

I hated Cameron and Osborn's negative campaigning - but they did similar against Ed Milliband in 2015 and it worked.

[diable rouge]

What lies in particular robbin?...

[robbin]

Seriously?

[diable rouge]

Absolutely!...

[robbin]

Loss of 500,000 jobs straight after the vote over 2 years ago. Utterly false.

Emergency budget the day after the referendum, with tax rises. Utterly false.

Straight into recession. Utterly false, GDP has grown every quarter since - it is the German economy on the brink of recession.

UK at back of the queue for US trade deal (OK that was Obama but he was plainly egged on to say this by Cameron stood next to him smiling and nodding like a nodding dog in a car window). False.

The list could go on, but these are major (false) predictions apparently designed to create fear and increase the remain vote. They have all turned out to be false. So what effect do you think those had on the distorting the true vote?

[keano77]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> What lies in particular robbin?...

Remainers referring to the side of a bus when any half-wit could see it was an executive coach

[teddyboy23]

Didn't Cameron also say something about world war 3 .

[carlafindle]

... or this

[robbin]

teddyboy23 Wrote:

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> Didn't Cameron also say something about world war

> 3 .

Yes, but I discounted that because it was so 'out there' that it was more redolent of a line from a panto than a serious political statement.

[robbin]

robbin Wrote:

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> Loss of 500,000 jobs straight after the vote over

> 2 years ago. Utterly false. (ETA - see below unemployment figures out today)

>

> Emergency budget the day after the referendum,

> with tax rises. Utterly false.

>

> Straight into recession. Utterly false, GDP has

> grown every quarter since - it is the German

> economy on the brink of recession.

>

> UK at back of the queue for US trade deal (OK that

> was Obama but he was plainly egged on to say this

> by Cameron stood next to him smiling and nodding

> like a nodding dog in a car window). False.

>

> The list could go on, but these are major (false)

> predictions apparently designed to create fear and

> increase the remain vote. They have all turned

> out to be false. So what effect do you think those

> had on the distorting the true vote?

Oh and today the unemployment figures are out - down to 3.9% in the UK (lowest since 1975) compared to the EU average of 6.5%.

Does this answer your question dr? Were you unaware of those ridiculous scare tactics? Did you think they were legitimate forecasts when you cast your vote in the referendum (in which case you would have been misled into voting to remain) or did you just think the NHS bus was the only bs being peddled? I only ask because you appear to concentrate exclusively on bs on one side as if that's the only nonsense that was spoken about Brexit.

[Sephiroth]

People were talking about triggering A50 the day after the referendum. Some of the projections were specifically "after we leave the EU"

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows

We haven't left yet, have we?

The broad thrust of negative forecasts from remainers have largely come true - companies will leave, you won't get better trade deals, irish border, losing freedom of movement rights etc etc

We are 2 weeks away from leaving with no deal - I would hold fire on any "everything is still great" type statements just now

And this is all regardless of the reputational damage done to the country

[JohnL]

The Sunderland marchers were resting on the lorry hired by led by donkeys yesterday - is that a truce :)

[robbin]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> People were talking about triggering A50 the day

> after the referendum. Some of the projections were

> specifically "after we leave the EU"

>

> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-ente

> r-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu

> -new-treasury-analysis-shows

>

> We haven't left yet, have we?

>

> The broad thrust of negative forecasts from

> remainers have largely come true - companies will

> leave, you won't get better trade deals, irish

> border, losing freedom of movement rights etc etc

>

> We are 2 weeks away from leaving with no deal - I

> would hold fire on any "everything is still great"

> type statements just now

>

> And this is all regardless of the reputational

> damage done to the country

Not a single one of those projections was made on that basis, as you well know. I chose the examples carefully. So your observation is invalid.

Stick your head in the sand if you wish - it's your prerogative - after all, if you don't those fake forecasts won't fit with your absolute certainties. I can see how that would be something you would want to avoid.

[Sephiroth]

Just for clarity, when you say ?on that basis? you mean Britain leaving the eu? You are saying those projections were not made on basis of Britain leaving eu?

[diable rouge]

robbin, I knew all about the Treasury economic predictions used by the Remain side, I just wanted to make sure you did too. I actually paid little attention to both campaigns, in fact I don't think I posted anything on here pre-referendum. I have always been very pro-EU, not just for economic reasons, so my voting intention wasn't swayed in the slightest by the Remain campaign. I'm sure the same can be said for some Leave voters and the Leave campaign.

With regard to the Treasury predictions, I believe that they came with some important caveats, namely that should Leave win, A50 would be triggered the day after the referendum, and that there would be no financial stimuli to the economy.

As we know A50 wasn't triggered until 9 months later, and the BoE intervened quite quickly after the referendum by lowering interest rates and increasing QE, thus voiding any prediction. As an aside, when did getting an economic forecast wrong become 'lies'?

As for both sides telling porkies yet I'm only concentrating on one side, I'm reminded of the adage two wrongs don't make a right. As far as I'm concerned the side that wins, in this case Leave, becomes accountable for their promises, they have to deliver regardless of what the other side said, everything Remain said is now irrelevant, just like it is when a party loses an election, instead it's up to the winning party to deliver on it's promises and be held accountable if it doesn't...

[robbin]

Yes, but the point I was making is different - I was challenging the notion that it is an appropriate comparison to suggest the vote was somehow swung unfairly by one side's bs, while completely ignoring the same on the other side. It's not on any view a valid way of analysing something. I would have thought that basic principle is surely beyond any sort of argument?

Otherwise the 'debate' becomes Trumpesque in its artificiality.

[Alan Medic]

Brexit hasn't even happened yet. I'm still waiting to hear of one potential tangible benefit of Brexit. Anyone?

[Sephiroth]

Me: "The broad thrust of negative forecasts from

> remainers have largely come true - companies will

> leave, you won't get better trade deals, irish

> border, losing freedom of movement rights etc etc "

Robbin: "Not a single one of those projections was made on that basis, as you well know. I chose the examples carefully. So your observation is invalid."

companies leaving example

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/14/eu-referendum-poll-1-in-3-firms-leave-uk-brexit

trade deals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36074853

Irish Border

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35502736

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/tony-blair-and-john-major-brexit-would-close-irish-border

[robbin]

Still missing the point then, eh? Or maybe deliberately misrepresenting the posts by cutting and pasting bits that don't relate to each other?!!

As you well know (given that you can read) the 'reply' to my point was not to the part you ascribed to it, but to this...

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> People were talking about triggering A50 the day

> after the referendum. Some of the projections were

> specifically "after we leave the EU"

to which I replied...

"Not a single one of those projections was made on that basis, as you well know. I chose the examples carefully. So your observation is invalid."

I.e. NOT your misquote.

Please just stop! I'm not responding to such nonsense from you any more. You dumb down the 'debate' to such an extreme extent it's just irritating and a waste of time engaging with.

I might disagree with others on here, but mostly they make fair points - certainly not cutting and pasting to effect some sort of wind-up. That's no more than trolling - it's not clever.

[Sephiroth]

well I asked for clarification on your point and didn't get it

What point am I missing?

[robbin]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> well I asked for clarification on your point and

> didn't get it

>

> What point am I missing?

I've edited my post - you can work it out for yourself, but I won't be responding to you further.