100 Years since the Titantic distaster

[El Pibe]

Right on sister, first up against the wall come the ʁƏvolution!! ;-)

It really was a long time ago and probably not worth getting all class war hot under the collar about.

It is in any case rather a trite truism to point out that the poor died in greater numbers, but it wasn't some conspiracy.

Poor immigrants had to go through Ellis Island because they were a)immigrants and b)far more likely to be carrying communicable diseases, lice, mangy pets and spoilt meat etc, hence the partitioning of the ship.

The rich folk would have had their papers and health documents in order, but would have, at any rate, been more likley to be tourists rather than migrants anyway.

It's the same reason it takes you half an hour to get through JFK airport, with your tourist visa and prebooked hotel and it takes Pyotr Probotkin from Moldova with nothing sorted out, the best part of a day (if he's not turned back).

As it happen I seem to share the name of some dodgy Colombian carel type and inevitably spend a couple of hours being grilled if I travel on my Spanish passport :(

[Alan Medic]

woodrot Wrote:

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> well this piss take thread has gone well hasnt it

Some people just don't get it Woody.

[Mick Mac]

We were bored with the "humour" of the opening posts....

[Michael Palaeologus]

EVERYBODY forgets the Goldfish.

An admittedly small bowl of Goldfish in the Upper Class Bar (just behind the Tanqueray), whilst hundred of people drowned around them, those Goldfish had a glimpse of impending freedom.

The bowl slipped along the shelf, scattering bottles and cocktail umbrellas, easing the Goldfish toward liberation.

Finally, their too confined prison slipped into the infinite ocean and the Goldfish swam free, free, free.

Free into the salty sea-water, not good for Goldfish. Not good at all.

A tragedy.

[DJKillaQueen]

LOL Michael. That isn't in Walter Lords book.....an oversight perhaps?

I agree El Pipe that class was incidental rather than a conscious conspiracy....and simply a reflection of the times. Far more true to say would be that there was no practised evacuation plan in place. No lifeboat drill had been practised and what is evident from Walter Lord's book is that many of the crew were playing it by ear. The first lifeboats lowered were full of men because there were no women on the upper deck. That is because in an effort to prevent panic...no sense of urgency was communicated to the passengers, even if they were told the true gravity of the situation. Basically everything that could have gone wrong for the Titanic did.

But we saw this recently too with the Costa Concordia. Passengers were not assembled on deck or lifeboats lowered until it was too late to do so. When a ship takes on water, passengers should be sent onto deck immediately....it's the safest place to be. But on the Costa they were initially told to stay in their cabins. Time that could have been spent getting passengers methodically and calmly into lifeboats was wasted.

And I once wrote a letter of complaint after travelling on a P&O ferry in a force 7 gale at night. I saw that the fire doors (which by law should be easy to open) to the life boat decks had chains and padlocks on them! It was quite soon after the Estonia tragedy so ferry safety was high profile. It's this kind of complacency, because passenger ships rarely sink, that lead to unecessary death and poor procedure when something does go wrong.

[El Pibe]

Insisting on no padlocks to the lifeboats is just 'elf an safety gone maaaad I tell ya.

[Mick Mac]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> The first lifeboats lowered were full of men

> because there were no women on the upper deck.

I have not heard this before - are you sure this is true?

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes it is true. Most first class women went to the port side. On the starboard side mostly first class male passengers were gathered. Hence the first boats on the starboard side containing men. There were only 16 lifeboats plus four collapsables. First class passengers had easy access to the lifeboat decks which is why so the majority of those lowered in the lifeboats were first class. In fact, two thirds of the first class passengers survived compared to only a quarter of third class passengers.

I can thoroughly recommend Walter Lord's book. It is thorough and was written at a time when the writer could still collate witness accounts to build what is considered the most thorough and best researched account of the sinking.

[Huguenot]

Those numbers in full.

DJKQ, just as an observation, like, but you seem to be very motivated by this topic?

Do you see it as a case study of the oppression of women and the working class?

I think that would be a valid observation, but it genuinely has little relevance to modern society. There are lots of things that society believed in then that are now only believed by the intellectually challenged.

There's no point in hauling up the stone age as a case study of the challenges facing the British manufacturing industry!

[Huguenot]

On the subject of the oppression of women on the titanic:

Almost 75% of women passengers on the Titanic were saved, compared with barely 17% of men - and you want to argue about class war? It's a sideshow.

I should also add that only 50% of children were saved - so that means that women were trampling of the bodies of children to save their own arse, whilst the men stood by humming and haaaing about how righteous that was.

To me that's bloody ridiculous.

I don't think you have a better right to survive because you're a woman. What pillock decided that?

So to paraphrase El Pibe - come the revolution let's hope the first against the wall are not the bourgeoisie, but women: just to even up the score a bit.

[DJKillaQueen]

I was reading a book at the moment which is my only reason for engaging with this thread....stop over reacting!

Here's the breakdown of passengers dead and survived submitted after the disaster....as illustrated in the book I referenced.

First class passengers

Men survived 58

Men died 115

Women survived 139

Women died 5

Children survived 5

Children Died none

Second class passengers

Men survived 13

Men died 147

Women survived 78

Women died 15

Children survived 24

Children Died none

Third class passengers

Men survived 55

Men died 399

Women survived 98

Women died 81

Children survived 25

Children Died 53

Crew

Men survived 189

Men died 686

Women survived 21

Women died 2

I think those figures speak for themselves. That's why I find them interesting. You might want to try reading some research in depth H just once instead of relying on five minute internet searches ;)

[????]

So actually it was the Bourgeoise who took it, not the toffs nor the plebs- highest percentage of deaths was among 2nd class males. Middle classes in trying to ape their betters to the extent of getting themselves drowned more shocker :))

[El Pibe]

The squeezed middle.

Plus ca change......

[????]

:))

Or maybe the freezed middle

[Mick Mac]

I don't think either of those two posts were deserving of a smiley face. Please use smileys less frequently or risk blunting their impact :)) :))

[El Pibe]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17756036

Assuming that whoever commissioned it had no idea about the anniversary when they did so, this can best be described as ironic and perhaps a little unfortunate.

If it was the 25th anniversary of the Herald of Free Enterprise more sensitivity might be deemed appropriate (in fact that was a month ago, did anyone notice, was it up then?).

But...

Offensive.

Really?

It does beggar belief what offends people these days.

[Mick Mac]

They love a laugh the Irish. They have a couple of 9/11 inflatable towers lined up for September.

[Loz]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Almost 75% of women passengers on the Titanic were saved, compared with barely 17% of men - and you

> want to argue about class war? It's a sideshow.

Ah... thank you Hugo. All very well to waffle on about class forever, but the rank sexism of 'women first' should be tackled.

[El Pibe]

To play devils advocate, the first part of the equation in "women and children first" is down to an outmoded view that women are lesser/weaker creatures in need of protection and men are chivalrous and noble.

Thanks to feminism such ludicous stone age thinking has gone for good.

Surely now in such a situation it should be "children first" or at least "pregnant women and children first" shouldn't it?

I'm not sure why Claire form marketing should be automatically assumed to be more worthy and deserving of life than I?

[Mick Mac]

El Pibe Wrote:

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>

> I'm not sure why Claire form marketing should be

> automatically assumed to be more worthy and

> deserving of life than I?

Can we have a look at Claire, and we can decide.

[El Pibe]

Oh she wins hands down on that one for sure!!!

Here she is, honest guv, celebrating getting our company another filler mention in Your Money Are Belong To Us Weekly.

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/17815065/2/stock-photo-17815065-your-business-victory.jpg

If we were on a sinking ship and it was sinking slowly enough for people to nominate who they'd like to have saved, I would be doomed.

[Loz]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> To play devils advocate, the first part of the equation in "women and children first" is down to

> an outmoded view that women are lesser/weaker creatures in need of protection and men are

> chivalrous and noble.

But surely the class structure that DJKQ is talking about is also part of a now outmoded view. You can bet that, on the ship that sank in Italy last year, the first class passengers had no priority for the lifeboats.

You can't argue one outmoded view without the other, else you should argue neither.

> Thanks to feminism such ludicous stone age thinking has gone for good.

Going. But not gone. It still hangs around like a bad smell in too many places. Though I have to say, usually the fault of feeble-minded men, rather than women.

[El Pibe]

"You can't argue one outmoded view without the other, else you should argue neither."

I don't think i did, did I?

My original point was that it was a lack 'elf and safety rather than class war.

[maxxi]

The idea of Women and Children First was only to get them out of the way as they were deemed less (un)able to look after themselves and certainly of absolutely no use in helping anyone else. It was a given, though, that there was plenty of time for all to abandon a vessel and that men would be next and not that 'first' meant only.

Not so much 'chivalry' as "Get the bloody women and kids out of the way so we can abandon this ship in a proper and dignified manner!" (before posing in a windswept manner at the railing for heroic photo- or lithographic prints).

These days I suspect Claire from Marketing would be loudly extolling the virtues of the (overcrowded) aft lifeboats whilst sidling casually towards the (empty) ones at the pointy end.

[El Pibe]

In all fairness, they would have been a bloody liability back then!!

http://www.yourvintagewedding.com/_files/image/Victorian/victorian%20era%20fashions.jpg