Why is Dulwich the poor relation?

[dulwichmum]

Dear Red_cat,

I was just wondering,

"3.The area has attracted a rather undesirable type of snob;"

Do you consider therefor some types of snob to be more "desirable" than others?

[Huguenot]

Hi Ibo

1. Young working class (WC) kids being 'priced out' of the area is driven by wider social change. There is no heavy industry within ED - commuter roles that young adults now take are all white-collar service industry and middle-class. If these original WC kids are underqualified then they have to leave to find low-paid unskilled work. That's migration, not being forced out. If these WC kids get qualifications then they end up middle-class. They'd get a better paid job and they'd still be local, but middle class, so you'd probably dislike them anyway. However, I think you recommended earlier that education was a bad thing.

It's the working classes that are disappearing, as they decide that white-collar work is slightly more fulfilling than spending 40 years in a car indicator light factory. We can't forget that the wonderful working-class solidarity we speak so fondly of was generated by a shared experience of breadline jobs, poverty, malnutrition, neglected environment and disease. They still have these in China, and I can assure you that the working class culture is still going strong there, along with sing-songs, organised crime and corruption etc. etc.

2. I watched WC ED long-term locals cash in equity in their spiralling house value to buy more cars, whilst many more insightful newer residents were too concerned about environmental issues or too skint to do the same themselves.

3. I'm sure there's the odd wally in all of the parts of the community, but sweeping comments inappropriately attacking vast groups of people is inflammatory and designed to create tribal conflict. It's a dark dark world if people believe that stirring sectarian hatred is a worthy investment of their time.

4. This part of your argument is inconsistent: you can't criticise 'rich newcomers' for investing into the area in a way that you perceive to be damaging, and then complain that they haven't invested in roads where longer-term residents live. By your logic if 'they' did invest in these street then 'they' would ruin them....

That aside, this is borderline paranoid - there is no conspiracy (or even dialogue) of nouveau riche plotting to develop their own streets and neglect the others. Painting one's own house every couple of years costs the same as a couple of pints.

Councils invest disproportionately on poorer more run-down streets (like Marsden). If you want them to develop these streets then go to the community meetings.

[mockney piers]

Tut tut, surely you know by now that reasoned argument is the clanging death knell of any thread, get thee to a trollery Huguenot!!

[Guest]

Ibo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *Bob* Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There's hardly any point in even replying to

> > anything Ibo's posted so far, which mostly

> seems

> > to be the same 12 words shuffled around in

> various

> > orders. It's like trying to have a discussion

> with

> > a fruit machine. What's the point?

> >

> > And;'registered' Bob.. I have my eye on you.

> There

> > can only be ONE true *Bob*

>

> Be fair , it is more than 12 words .

Ibo, I do detect the faintest sense of humour there old boy. Good on ya mate!

[blinder999]

On the subject of Underhill Rd being neglected, are shopkeepers required to maintain their shopfronts to any kind of standard?

Some of the shops up there are crumbling away, with the debris piling up in front...

[mockney piers]

Still on the subject of Underhill, I noticed at the London A life in Mpas exhibiton at the British Library (still on for a few weeks and free and well well well worth a visit) that the entire east dulwich area in the 16th century used to be simply called Fox Under Hill. And that a pub called the fox has stood at the site of the Fox-on-the-Hill for about 400 years.

.... I'll get my coat.

[batdog]

Yeah in Underhill Rd that off licence shop (opposite the Fish & Chips place) looks worse than a shop in Baghdad that has just been "bombed" by US Apache Choppers... and the council apparently doesn't care at all. It has been in such a status for years.

[blinder999]

ha - that's the worst offender, with the missing signs (since they fell off), and a rusty corrugated iron fence along the side that looks as if its about to collapse

[Keef]

I feel a bit bad saying this, cos I really like the chippy on Underhill, and they give HUGE portions... But, I do wish they'd do something about their rubbish. They have a massive bin out the front, and franky it stinks! It gets a lot worse in the summer, and can't be doing them any good, cos when I smell that, I don't fancy buying their food.

Like I say, they're really nice people, and it's a great chip shop, but they should do something about that.

Maybe it's just me.

[Guest]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I feel a bit bad saying this, cos I really like

> the chippy on Underhill, and they give HUGE

> portions... But, I do wish they'd do something

> about their rubbish. They have a massive bin out

> the front, and franky it stinks! It gets a lot

> worse in the summer, and can't be doing them any

> good, cos when I smell that, I don't fancy buying

> their food.

>

> Like I say, they're really nice people, and it's a

> great chip shop, but they should do something

> about that.

>

> Maybe it's just me.

It is not just you .They use to park in on the road until the Council told them to stop doing so. Next time you visit talk to the owners , tell them you will boycott the shop unless they put the bin at the rear yard where they originally promised to keep it.

[Guest]

batdog Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah in Underhill Rd that off licence shop

> (opposite the Fish & Chips place) looks worse than

> a shop in Baghdad that has just been "bombed" by

> US Apache Choppers... and the council apparently

> doesn't care at all. It has been in such a status

> for years.

Does anyone buy anything from this healthy looking shop?

[Guest]

blinder999 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the subject of Underhill Rd being neglected,

> are shopkeepers required to maintain their

> shopfronts to any kind of standard?

>

> Some of the shops up there are crumbling away,

> with the debris piling up in front...

The old GLC funded the paving of the shopfronts on the fish and chip side . In those days the fronts were open-plan .The public footpath is badly worn and dangerous to walk on

[Guest]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi Ibo

>

> 1. Young working class (WC) kids being 'priced

> out' of the area is driven by wider social change.

> There is no heavy industry within ED - commuter

> roles that young adults now take are all

> white-collar service industry and middle-class. If

> these original WC kids are underqualified then

> they have to leave to find low-paid unskilled

> work. That's migration, not being forced out. If

> these WC kids get qualifications then they end up

> middle-class. They'd get a better paid job and

> they'd still be local, but middle class, so you'd

> probably dislike them anyway. However, I think you

> recommended earlier that education was a bad

> thing.

>

> It's the working classes that are disappearing, as

> they decide that white-collar work is slightly

> more fulfilling than spending 40 years in a car

> indicator light factory. We can't forget that the

> wonderful working-class solidarity we speak so

> fondly of was generated by a shared experience of

> breadline jobs, poverty, malnutrition, neglected

> environment and disease. They still have these in

> China, and I can assure you that the working class

> culture is still going strong there, along with

> sing-songs, organised crime and corruption etc.

> etc.

>

> 2. I watched WC ED long-term locals cash in equity

> in their spiralling house value to buy more cars,

> whilst many more insightful newer residents were

> too concerned about environmental issues or too

> skint to do the same themselves.

>

> 3. I'm sure there's the odd wally in all of the

> parts of the community, but sweeping comments

> inappropriately attacking vast groups of people is

> inflammatory and designed to create tribal

> conflict. It's a dark dark world if people believe

> that stirring sectarian hatred is a worthy

> investment of their time.

>

> 4. This part of your argument is inconsistent: you

> can't criticise 'rich newcomers' for investing

> into the area in a way that you perceive to be

> damaging, and then complain that they haven't

> invested in roads where longer-term residents

> live. By your logic if 'they' did invest in these

> street then 'they' would ruin them....

>

> That aside, this is borderline paranoid - there is

> no conspiracy (or even dialogue) of nouveau riche

> plotting to develop their own streets and neglect

> the others. Painting one's own house every couple

> of years costs the same as a couple of pints.

>

> Councils invest disproportionately on poorer more

> run-down streets (like Marsden). If you want them

> to develop these streets then go to the community

> meetings.

We still need working class kids to do the jobs that the new snobs look down on ie mechanics , barbers , window cleaners etc . These people cannot compete with the newcomers .Education is a long-term solution , what we have now is a short-term problem .

Many old residents are using the equity to fund their retirement , health care and to give some money to their childre. The expensive cars are being driven by the newcomers.