12pm start Sat 20th July - 'March For Change' in Central London

[Loutwo]

I find it difficult to justify a further referendum, simply because definitions of ?leave? are ambiguous. If politicians want to hand such complex and important decisions down to the populace, it is imperative those definitions are in place before the question is asked. They were not. People can only go on what information they have been given and the questions they have been asked. Let?s not start blaming the great unwashed for reaching a decision on those ?facts?.

A referendum round two, which may have those definitions, could easily be rejected again. Are ?remainers? now saying they?ll happily toddle off out the EU and accept that the ignorant people who voted ?leave? first time actually meant it? I doubt that?s the case. Furthermore, if there?s a narrow ?remain? vote, do we get round 3? Or would it not just be easier to accept the first result, get out of the EU in whatever fashion our politicians conjure up (god forbid), and then reconsider entry at a later date. And yes, it will be painful, and yes their will be concessions, but unfortunately that?s what happens when politicians hand big decisions to people who don?t understand them.

Louisa.

[dbboy]

Options are;

1) Stay and see what happens, come what may. (and from what is being said this morning in the press looks like at least five ministers intend to resign from Govt if Johnson becomes PM).Which means the Govt could potentially fall

IMO he's a car crash just waiting to happen again and will be a disaster for the UK, he opens his mouth without first engaging his brain).

OR

2) Leave and re-settle in another country if the thought of leaving the EU is so hard to accept.

[Sephiroth]

This is how docile, meek and sloppy with your thinking being an English subject of a monarchy makes people

?I think brexit is a mistake. I voted for it but I changed my mind?

Probably millions like you. You probably want a second referendum to be sure before making such a momentous change, breaking up the United Kingdom and threatening peace in Ireland as well as medicine shortages and poverty. Yknow. Like other grown up countries do?

?Christ no!!!?

[Sephiroth]

?

2) Leave and re-settle in another country if the thought of leaving the EU is so hard to accept.?

We can do this now. But we won?t be able to do it precisely because of Brexit. Do you see?????

Here is another option. Weigh up all the facts and realise it?s not worth it

[dbboy]

Remain or leave, you want to remain and can't accept the result of a democratic vote.

Oh, and give up on the crass and patronising you're English remarks.

[Sephiroth]

It wasn?t a democratic referendum

It was a narrow result

The projections of damage were dismissed as project fear then but are accepted as ?what people voted for now?

You won?t accept responsibility for the damage about to happen. I?ll patronise anyone dumb enough to ignore the facts and cause so much damage

This isn?t a referendum about voting systems, divorce or anything else. It doesn?t matter what Cameron promised. He wasn?t in a position to write that cheque and the country can?t cash it. Just because you think you ?won? doesn?t make it any more possible

[paulu197]

This referendum wasnt binding either. Regardless of who you voted for, it at least provides what people want. I for one am sick of people calling leavers uneducated and fools and the same way they call remainders leftwards etc. Finally, when you vote in a general election you are voting for a party and its that parties right to decide who the leader should be.

[KalamityKel]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?Exactly, people didn't know what they were voting

> for and or more importantly what the consequences

> would be.?

>

> I?m not convinced the consequences are still fully

> known, but given what we have learned since the

> referendum a follow-up would not vote Leave IMO.

Many would also choose not to vote at all... after all, what's the point?

[JohnL]

I don't see how continuing to campaign for the concept of a supra-national group is wrong and I can't see how any PM could unite a country that looks like splitting anyway.

I will become, I think, a more selfish person if Brexit hits me personally.

[Sephiroth]

?

Many would also choose not to vote at all... after all, what's the point??

You have a better plan Kel?

A narrow vote on an ill-defined promise with a ratification referendum 3 years later does not invalidate democracy or any previous vote

But. Yknow. *shrugs*

[Jenny1]

Second referendum or no, I would argue that we now need a full consultative process involving large swathes of the population to work out exactly the shape of our political and social future, in or out of Europe.

The process would be similar to that carried out in Ireland prior to the abortion referendum. But it would have to be larger in scope. We'd need a cross-party committee to work all this out. I suspect a General Election will deliver a hung parliament and consequently this kind of approach will be easier to adopt.

While I'm really sad about it, I suspect that whatever happens we'll be having another Scottish independence referendum soon (as SNP support will be needed by any government). So we may well see an independent Scotland fairly shortly. If that happens I can reconcile myself more readily to the incredibly sad break-up of the UK by imagining what shape the future relationships between the former UK nations will take. I believe that an informed, consultative process across the country about the best way forward (not just Cameron's back of a fag packet stuff) could have several outcomes. But most likely it will mean a reduced UK (maybe just England and Wales in some kind of union, as NI may choose to go it's own way too) either remaining in the EU or making the kind of Brexit most widely advertised by the Leavers during the referendum campaign (I'm sure we all remember that 'No-one's talking about leaving the Single Market'). In either case we would be able to retain a close and positive relationship with Scotland and with Ireland (enlarged or otherwise).

Sephiroth, sadly, has a point about the political immaturity of the country. We can only start to fix that by trusting people, in a consultative process, to take an active, informed part in making difficult decisions. I don't see his comments as patronising. What I do see as patronising is politicians waving kippers about, and lying as they do so.

[Jenny1]

KalamityKel Wrote:

> Many would also choose not to vote at all... after

> all, what's the point?

What a very strange question. The future and well being of our country, and everyone who lives here, is the point.

[Jenny1]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't see how continuing to campaign for the

> concept of a supra-national group is wrong and I

> can't see how any PM could unite a country that

> looks like splitting anyway.

>

> I will become, I think, a more selfish person if

> Brexit hits me personally.

Indeed. Everyone will become more selfish in those circumstances.

[Jenny1]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It doesn?t matter what

> Cameron promised. He wasn?t in a position to

> write that cheque and the country can?t cash it.

That sums things up pretty well.

[Loutwo]

Just because I changed my mind, after voting, doesn?t mean others did. Check the opinion polls. It isn?t as clear cut as you think. In your logic, people who made a decision which they believe in are actually cretins who need the nanny state to slap them on the wrist and ask them to think again. Oh hang on, isn?t that what the Irish government did?

Ireland was forced to vote numerous times for something they didn?t really care about, in a referendum hoisted upon them by membership of the EU, and their democratic process. And despite rejecting it after being shown the facts, they were told to think again by their pro EU government, just because they didn?t want to allow democracy to take its course.

No doubt you?d be the first to NOT want the Irish to re-run a referendum on same sex marriage, or abortion? Yet when the EU asks, you of course have to obey. It?s pathetic. Referenda is about people coming to a majority conclusion, whatever that conclusion is and whatever damage it may cause. And yes, a lot of the so called damage is just conjecture at this time. The Irish border issue can and will be resolved, the Scots will still probably remain in the union, and the world around us won?t sink into some imagined post apocalyptic abyss. Oh and we might even re-join in another five years. But hey, what do I know? I?m just a moron who voted for something I didn?t understand.

Louisa.

[Jenny1]

Loutwo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Irish border

> issue can and will be resolved,

How?

the Scots will

> still probably remain in the union

I hope to God that you're right. I really care about the unity of the UK. But I fear that now, Brexit or not, the damage is already done.

> I?m

> just a moron who voted for something I didn?t

> understand.

>

Please don't use horrible language about yourself Louisa. No-one else is calling you names. It's fine to change your mind.

[Sephiroth]

?

Ireland was forced to vote numerous times for something they didn?t really care about, in a referendum hoisted upon them by membership of the EU, and their democratic process. And despite rejecting it after being shown the facts, they were told to think again by their pro EU government, just because they didn?t want to allow democracy to take its course. ?

Lou. By now you are clearly talking out of your arse about a country and situation you know nothing about - stop it. You could not be more wrong

[Sephiroth]

? But hey, what do I know? I?m just a moron who voted for something I didn?t understand?

What can I add? By your own words you are damned

[Sephiroth]

?Just because I changed my mind doesn?t mean others did?

Do you really believe that Louisa. Genuinely?

https://www.remainernow.com/

[Loutwo]

On the point raised above about the SNP and independence, support for a second independence referendum is at its lowest point in decades, and the SNP are not performing well in opinion polls. Even if they get a second crack at the whip, there?s absolutely no appetite amongst most Scots to rock the boat even further and make themselves poorer by leaving two unions in one fowl swoop. But the ?breakup of the Union? narrative is yet another scare tactic used by some in the ?remain? camp to justify a further referendum.

Louisa.

[Jenny1]

I really hope you're right about Scotland choosing to stay in the Union Louisa, it would be heartbreaking to see them leave. And yes, I hang onto those opinion polls as a beacon of hope, and pray that they will hold. But in the event of a badly managed Brexit I can see Scottish voters changing their minds pretty fast. I would imagine a way would be found of fast-tracking Scottish EU membership.

Fundamentally I don't think any of us (Scottish, Welsh whatever) should have been put in the position where the solidity of the Union was being so flagrantly disregarded by the government.

[Loutwo]

Sephiroth you know as well as I do most Irish voters didn?t give two hoots about the Lisbon Treaty, and the EU had utter contempt for the referendum process. Interesting read below which explains why the EU don?t respect democracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

Louisa.

[Jenny1]

Hi Louisa

I don't think one should rely simply on the Brendan O'Neill perspective on this issue. He comes, as he would acknowledge himself I think, very much from a Marxist perspective. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not a view of the world that holds tremendous traction these days.

[Jenny1]

... I should have added above. There are many who would, of course, now see Brendan O'Neill as a representative of the extreme libertarian right. Interesting as it highlights how close extremes of left and right always are, and how short the journey can be between the two.

[Loutwo]

Jenny1, I think he is a well informed person, and makes some very interesting points about how the structure of the EU doesn?t allow for flexibility when it comes to democratic processes. Why do you think the left of the Labour Party is so anti-EU? Most people of Corbyn?s ilk are opposed to the dictatorial capitalism which the EU allows to thrive, and any attempt to stand upto it is immediately rejected and treated with utter contempt.

Ireland said no, and the people were told their answer wasn?t good enough, so have another go until you say yes. I think that?s exactly what a lot of ?remain? voters are expecting from this referendum process here too, and they?ll be sorely disappointed IMO.

Louisa.