12pm start Sat 20th July - 'March For Change' in Central London

[Sephiroth]

Lou?s own words are beyond contempt and not worth responding to. ?I know as well as she does?. Please

That she then quotes the lunatic that is Brendan o neil - a man wrong about everything - shows how she processes and absorbs information

[Jenny1]

Hi Louisa. Yes, I'm very aware of the 'Lexit' gang - but I'm afraid I've never heard a left-wing 'leave' argument that held water. We are living in an age of rampant capitalism and the EU is doing vital work, via the protection of workers and human rights, to counter that. Once out of the EU the UK will be exposed to far more unbridled capitalism.

I've never found commentators like O'Neill particularly interesting. Anyone who happily sits at extremes of right or left wins my distrust.

I would turn to someone like Fintan O'Toole for a more nuanced view on the Lisbon Treaty issue.

[Sephiroth]

If Ireland was ?told to vote again until they have the right answer? why would a 53% winning vote become a 32 % losing vote?

How does that happen. How do that many people go ?well since you asked again?

Between the two votes events changed. The Irish government renegotiated. That was something they could do because they were grown up as and didn?t give away all bargaining power by leaving the eu

The stupid stupid English pride - this ?we will show them? is so so damaging

If Lou was correct in her interpretation of Ireland you would think Ireland would be mad keen to leave the eu. But they aren?t are they?

[Loutwo]

Sephiroth, give me your perspective then on why Ireland was asked to vote again for the Lisbon Treaty. I thought decisions had to be unanimous, and correct me if I?m wrong, but most big decisions in Ireland go to a national referendum. What was wrong with the first answer?

I am unashamedly old school Labour, and I do think capitalism has been allowed to ride ruff-shod over every aspect of our democracy. However, I am a pragmatist, and I know that nothing is perfect. As much as I distrust the EU, on reflection I understand it is a necessary evil in a globalised world. However, I don?t think us leaving will be the end of the world, and the rigidity of your position is quite shocking to be honest.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

The only rigid position that is shocking is the English governments (wales voted leave but if they voted remain it wouldn?t have made any differences)

To pass a treaty that needs unanimous approval is no small thing. If one nation says no a discussion needs to be had about why, what the problem is and what can be done. That happened. It?s democracy in action. Ireland had concerns and they were addressed

Any future trade deals with the uk (who will be desperate for any deals) may well require unanimous approval of the eu 27. If one country vetoes a British deal, leaving Britain shafted, should we shrug and accept it. Or do we get back around a table?

If you think the uk leaving wont be the end of the world, does that include no deal ? In which case what are you smoking?

If it involves a deal, you realise it will be a deal that leaves us worse off and with no say? That might not be the end of the world but people will lose jobs. Why would you? And in any case you have failed to absorb how crazy the no deal wing are. No deal will pass their tests. You are giving up money and jobs and security to crazy people

[Loutwo]

The English pride you refer to is a fallacy.

Most English people didn?t want a vote on EU membership. Most don?t care enough about that one issue. But the buffoon that was Cameron put the vote to the people to save his own skin and to damage UKIP, but he was too arrogant to realise a population ravaged by austerity were more concerned with other matters, and used the referendum as a opportunity to whack him and his government with a big stick. Lesson? Don?t let people vote on complex issues. But that changes nothing. It happened, these are the consequences. And the polarisation continues. It will only end when we are brave enough as a democracy to enact the people?s will.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

That is meaningless rhetoric Louisa. You can?t use the phrase ?people?s will? unless you define it and people back it

?Leave the eu? is a many many headed beast with conflicting interpretations. There is no single ?leave?. And it?s plain wrong and dangerous to suggest otherwise

[Jenny1]

Loutwo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>the rigidity of your

> position is quite shocking to be honest.

>

I'm afraid I had to have a little chuckle at that Louisa! I can only say that you must be quite easily shocked...

[Sephiroth]

?population ravaged by austerity were more concerned with other matters, and used the referendum as a opportunity to whack him and his government with a big stick. ?

Some people call this cutting off one?s nose to spite ones face

Others shorten that to ?stupid?

Most eu countries have had austerity. Only England (and wales) dumb enough to think this was an answer

Plus the notion that it was the working class what voted leave is over-simplistic. At best.

[KalamityKel]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KalamityKel Wrote:

> > Many would also choose not to vote at all...

> after

> > all, what's the point?

>

> What a very strange question. The future and well

> being of our country, and everyone who lives here,

> is the point.

Think on that a tad more before contributing ;-)

[Sephiroth]

?I'm afraid I had to have a little chuckle at that Louisa! I can only say that you must be quite easily shocked...?

Don?t worry Jen. Faux-outrage at others whilst being constantly outraged herself (pizza!!!!! It?s just cheese in toast how very dare they!!!?? Is her entire raison d?etre

[Loutwo]

For once I didn?t bring pizza into this. Are we playing blow-in bingo again? If so I?ll get my scrapbook handy cos I?ve got three more corners begging to be filled.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

Now now. Just an easy illustration. It need not derail us.

Out of interest - if predictions of food and medicine shortages in event of no deal come to pass, who will you blame?

Or even if a deal is passed but Britain suffers somehow - I?m guessing it won?t be people like you who dismissed people like me? I?m guessing the eu, civil servants and bumbling politicians will be to blame?

[Loutwo]

Btw, Sephiroth, do you think it?s only the English (and Welsh) who are stupid enough to vote to leave the EU? Because last time I checked, the Italians Greeks and most former eastern bloc nations were pretty discontented too. The Hungarian government is, dare I say it, bordering on the extreme. Can?t see them remaining in for long.

Louisa.

[Jenny1]

KalamityKel Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Think on that a tad more before contributing ;-)

Did I miss some irony? Wouldn't be the first time!

[Sephiroth]

You do know that support for staying in the eu in Greece and Italy is about 75% right?

https://www.indy100.com/article/eu-membership-countries-vote-leave-remain-8888956

[Loutwo]

Let me give you a timeline of events.

July - Bumbling Boris enters number 10 promising a no deal exit

August - Brussels tells him existing deal won?t be reopened

September - Time is running out. Boris calculatedly blinks, crosses the odd T and dots the odd I, takes it back to parliament and they accept it.

October - UK leaves EU with Theresa May?s deal, no food or medicine shortages, a closely aligned relationship confirmed including common market access and freedom of movement.

November - election held and Boris scrapes a thin majority and tells everyone he?s saviour of the world.

December - it?s Christmas and everyone forgets about how far up shit creek we?ve travelled

January - people move on, the country is financially and politically diminished, but no one cares anymore because we get to not hear the word ?brexit? for a while.

Fast forward to 2025 and we re-join the EU after a referendum.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

Thanks for coming back. Given the likely candidates for Boris cabinet, and indeed the profile of people voting for him I can?t see that happening. Plus Farage and co won?t okay ball. And who in this scenario is accepting the Irish backstop exactly? All of this on a commons majority of what - 2?

But boy does all of that seem like a lot of fuss and bother for a diminished position. If people are so keen to forget about Brexit I?d say revoke and carry on

[Sephiroth]

But it wasn?t the question I asked you

Who will you blame if it all goes tits up?

[Loutwo]

David Cameron ultimately. He posed the question, with not a single moments thought for ?what if they vote leave??

You can?t blame the people for that. Don?t let them make such complex and resounding decisions.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah but that?s the past. We have to take responsibility for what we do from here on in

Because people will be looking for someone to blame. And the papers will be keen to help them. And Cameron won?t cut it

(I?ll be blaming people like you btw. People who stood between any reasonable way of preventing this mess. Then. And now. Maybe that?s harsh. But then again maybe you?ll change your mind once more are realise the stakes are too high and we will have a revocation or a referendum where we can count all the other people who have changed their mind too. That would be nice. Then I wouldn?t have to blame anyone)

[dbboy]

Cameron posed the question and duly quit because he was a remainer, May picked up the poison chalice and got her fingers burned, next Boris who is a bumbling buffoon. As I said earlier, with ministers resigning on Wednesday, if he takes office, don't forget Hunt may win????, but if Boris as predicted wins, the cabinet revolts or are revolting, then Corbyn seeks a vote of no confidence in the Govt, a GE is called, no overall winner, Corbyn loses badly and is duly ousted, where does that leave the UK, even more up a creek without a paddle.

[Loutwo]

I think it?s too easy to blame people who changed their mind. Really, if it?s looking for someone to blame, maybe the finger should be wagged at the leave campaign for promising the earth without a delivery process. I honestly can?t see how a second referendum can come about, unless of course Boris is prepared to weigh up his options and do a 180 if he sees public opinion shifting. He doesn?t like the idea of being the bad guy you know.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

Oh I?m not blaming you or anyone for changing their minds. I welcome it

But having changed your mind you should at least recognise how slim that majority was for such a major problematic change and the need for any progress to be on a robust foundation

It isn?t my fault you can?t see how a second referendum can happen. Simple fact is other countries do it and have done it. - but you still argue that that is fundamentally wrong.

I agree with you on Boris tho. I have long argued he is more likely to pivot than Corbyn.

[diable rouge]

I've long though that Johnson is more likely to go for a 2nd ref than people realise, simply because it may be the only way to keep himself in power. It's very unlikely that he would win a GE, I also think he's at great risk of losing his own seat too, and he'll be aware of that. So offering a 2nd ref as a counter to Tory rebels voting him down might be the only card he can play to stay in power, No Deal v Remain...