Jubilee Weekend

[Fabricio the Guido]

Moral relativism is a brilliant concept. I would also like to take a nuanced view of the Holocaust, six million dead but the train service was top notch. The conquistadors in Latin America, millions dead from small pox but many now speak Spanish and where would they be without the church which justified slavery for the indigenous people.http://youtu.be/0S2NKlMW0vc

[Loz]

woodrot Wrote:

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> more idiots

>

> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60680000/jpg

> /_60680351_unionjackbowlerhat.jpg

>

> http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02238/

> BRITAIN-QUEEN_2238082k.jpg

Somehow I suspect you lie awake at night worrying that someone, somewhere is enjoying themselves.

[Alan Medic]

Well Woody should worry about me then as I enjoy reading his somewhat OTT posts. As much as I find that I respect the Queen and quite like Phil, it's a bizarre world where people are born into a position of such authority and a lot of other people think it's great. It's actually just silly in my opinion. The royal family is really similar to an ongoing soap opera that people have grown attached to. That's about it.

[Marmora Man]

Fabricio the Guido Wrote:

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> >

> Moral relativism is a brilliant concept. I would

> also like to take a nuanced view of the Holocaust,

> six million dead but the train service was top

> notch. The conquistadors in Latin America,

> millions dead from small pox but many now speak

> Spanish and where would they be without the church

> which justified slavery for the indigenous

> people.http://youtu.be/0S2NKlMW0vc

Try to be more nuanced in your responses please - this is pathetic.

[Santerme]

woodrot Wrote:

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> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > RosieH Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Is it my imagination, or are people on here

> > > becoming more and more unhinged..?

> >

> > You want to pop over the the Guradian site and

> see

> > some of the mouth-frothing comments on there.

> The

> > 'republicanism is not dead' article is a

> > particularly wonderful collection of thoughts

> from

> > rationally challenged..

>

> TBF, if you want sense, then cat owning Guardian

> readers are probabaly not going to reap a

> bountiful harvest. Guardian readers are paper

> tigers.

Whereas you are a real tiger, are you tiger?

[civilservant]

MM, does this count as a nuanced view? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100048709/the-history-of-british-india-will-serve-david-cameron-well-as-long-as-he-doesnt-talk-about-it/

It is from the Daily Telegraph after all

One of the links in the article is to this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1770. I won't insist that we consider this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 as there is still some dispute about the (British) administration's culpability.

I quote you:

"those of us capable of a more nuanced look at the world can see both the enormous benefits that came out of the Britsh Empire as well as the many negatives - tho' many of those negatives are only so in the light of today's mores and not, of themselves, absolutely wrong or evil."

and ask two questions

man-made famines - are these an example of what is no longer negative "in the light of today's mores and not, of themselves, absolutely wrong or evil."?

benefits of Empire - yes, of course there were/are many, but you seem to be using ends to justify means. Do I understand you correctly?

No longer so easy to defend Empire. Even the Queen's advisers suggest she lay it to rest http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/honours-list/9249069/Queen-should-take-the-Empire-out-of-our-honours-system-say-Lord-Lieutenants.html,

[Marmora Man]

civilservant Wrote:

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> MM, does this count as a nuanced view?

> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/10004

> 8709/the-history-of-british-india-will-serve-david

> -cameron-well-as-long-as-he-doesnt-talk-about-it/

>

> It is from the Daily Telegraph after all

>

> One of the links in the article is to this -

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1770

> . I won't insist that we consider this

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

> as there is still some dispute about the (British)

> administration's culpability.

>

> I quote you:

> "those of us capable of a more nuanced look at the

> world can see both the enormous benefits that came

> out of the Britsh Empire as well as the many

> negatives - tho' many of those negatives are only

> so in the light of today's mores and not, of

> themselves, absolutely wrong or evil."

>

> and ask two questions

> man-made famines - are these an example of what is

> no longer negative "in the light of today's mores

> and not, of themselves, absolutely wrong or

> evil."?

> benefits of Empire - yes, of course there were/are

> many, but you seem to be using ends to justify

> means. Do I understand you correctly?

>

> No longer so easy to defend Empire. Even the

> Queen's advisers suggest she lay it to rest

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/honours-lis

> t/9249069/Queen-should-take-the-Empire-out-of-our-

> honours-system-say-Lord-Lieutenants.html,

Marginally more nuanced but it appears you still wish to paint the British Empire and all its works as irredeemably a bad thing. It wasn't. You misunderstand me - I was not trying to defend the indefensible, but trying to point out to those, such as Woodrot, that the world cannot be divided into Good / Bad; Right / Wrong; Left; Right as he seems to believe.

I did not say that the wrongs you raise as examples are simply seen as wrong by today's standards. Indeed I was trying to make the point that at least in certain instances the British recognised that they were in the wrong and started to change matters.

Remember Britain disengaged from what was then known as the Empire in a remarkably democratic fashion, handing over power and authority to the citizens of the many countries that now make up the Commonwealth, itself a positive organisation that is both democratic and a force for good in this world. Britain's handover didn't work well everywhere - the partition of India was clearly badly judged and mishandled, many African states fell into corruption and dictatorships but Britain didn't try to defend the impossible as France and Belgium did.

[civilservant]

Thank you, MM, "marginally more nuanced" - I'm sure that the Daily Telegraph would so love to hear your endoresment!

Lovely also to share your knowledge of British Imperial disengagement policy at its highest level.

France and particularly Belgium as baselines for reference... hmmmm... Given that we still have a lot of explaining to do about the opium trade, the Malaysian Emergency, the Mau Mau rebellion - just to take some top-of-head examples at random - I agree that they are the only way to ensure that Britain comes out ahead of its co-players in the Imperial game.

I would be very interested to hear your explanation of why "many African states fell into corruption and dictatorships" - I'm really looking forward to it.

[Fabricio the Guido]

I find it hard to believe that anyone can try to make a moral claim for the Empire. Is Colonisation ever a good thing? Maybe for the colonisers but rarely will it be for the colonised. Hence, my comment about relativism,but I see that I should have just referenced the Telegraph rather than mention abstract concepts.

Britain didn't try and defend the indefensible : so what about Britain's support for Rhodesia and South Africa?

[Santerme]

You cannot believe someone else has a different view of history to your own

End of debate then really

[woodrot]

Imagine a world where Hiter or Stalin or Mao's Grankids still headed the show in their countries- there would be justifiable outrage.

Mass murderers offsping & desendents should not be allowed to profit from their relatives genocidal bent. Usually anyway.

The Royals are living off the proceeds of murder, rape and pillage on a global scale.

You welcome their contined presence, you are sneering at the slaughter of millions - both at home and overseas

Enjoy your celebrations.I hope you can wash the blood off your hands when its all over.

[????]

You are Dave Spart and I claim my ?10

[Salsaboy]

Swarfega always works for me.

woodrot Wrote:

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> Enjoy your celebrations.I hope you can wash the

> blood off your hands when its all over.

[Santerme]

woodrot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Imagine a world where Hiter or Stalin or Mao's

> Grankids still headed the show in their countries-

> there would be justifiable outrage.

>

> Mass murderers offsping & desendents should not be

> allowed to profit from their relatives genocidal

> bent. Usually anyway.

>

> The Royals are living off the proceeds of murder,

> rape and pillage on a global scale.

>

> You welcome their contined presence, you are

> sneering at the slaughter of millions - both at

> home and overseas

>

> Enjoy your celebrations.I hope you can wash the

> blood off your hands when its all over.

Thanks having a wonderful time so far, long may it continue.

[Loz]

This weekend has been such a success. It's so good to see all the republicans and anti-monarchists having such an awful time.

[woodrot]

Yes indeed. Enjoy your day.long live the queeen.

[woodrot]

idiot gallery for today

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/04/article-2154433-1371F740000005DC-173_964x472.jpg

http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/webimage/1.3891340.1338220041!image/4064210637.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/4064210637.jpg

[the-e-dealer]

God Save The Queen

The Fascist Regime,

They Made You A Moron

A Potential H-Bomb.

God Save The Queen

She Ain't No Human Being.

There Is No Future

In England's Dreaming

Don't Be Told What You Want

Don't Be Told What You Need.

There's No Future

There's No Future

There's No Future For You

God Save The Queen

We Mean It Man

We Love Our Queen

God Saves

God Save The Queen

'Cos Tourists Are Money

And Our Figurehead

Is Not What She Seems

Oh God Save History

God Save Your Mad Parade

Oh Lord God Have Mercy

All Crimes Are Paid.

When There's No Future

How Can There Be Sin

We're The Flowers

In The Dustbin

We're The Poison

In Your Human Machine

We're The Future

You're Future

God Save The Queen

We Mean It Man

We Love Our Queen

God Saves

God Save The Queen

We Mean It Man

There Is No Future

In England's Dreaming

No Future

No Future For You

No Fufure For Me

[Loz]

Ah, yes...

1977 - writing punk songs against the Queen and the establishment

2012 - advertising butter.

They all come around in the end, don't they?

[Marmora Man]

Real Republicans must be weary of the cynicism of Woodrot and his small following. Republicanism as a political theory posits that a Monarchy is not necessary because the wisdom and common sense of the citizens of any country can make a better stab at governing their country. Woodrot appear to turn that idea upside down - in his view it is the foolishness, naivety and sheeplike devotion to an outdated concept of British citizens (subjects?) that maintains the Monarchy. So rather than trusting the British people, Woodrot despises, insults and diminishes them.

His stance also ignores the evolution of the British Constitution - where the Monarchy has given up true power and authority to the democratically elected government in return for a its continuance as a symbol of continuity and history.

[the-e-dealer]

Loz Wrote:

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> Ah, yes...

>

> 1977 - writing punk songs against the Queen and

> the establishment

>

> 2012 - advertising butter.

>

> They all come around in the end, don't they?

Well Loz it may surprise you that he made royalties (awful word :-)) in 77 and had a bank account. He must have sold out before he revolted!

He also used the NHS and roads paid for by road tax. You can still disagree with society even if you have to join in to survive. Next you will say the Syrian people have sold out because they go to government hospitals after being shot by the Army.

[RosieH]

Yes, he needed to sell butter to survive, do you see?

Clearly the royalties (awful word) he made way back when, would not allow him to "survive", what with inflation and all.

[Jah Lush]

The butter ads financed PIL's new album and last year's tour. He doesn't have a record contract. Without the money from the ads none of that would have been possible.

[Loz]

RosieH Wrote:

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> Clearly the royalties (awful word) he made way back when, would not allow him to "survive", what

> with inflation and all.

He made 'royalties' from God Save the Queen?? 'Republicanities', shurely? :))

[the-e-dealer]

Yes.

And Bees make republican Jelly.

And the Kids have left a right republican mess after the party.