Tram

[lane lover]

James Barber is behind a new ?55m "super tram" project linking Kings College Hospital and Guys Hospital at London Bridge.

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/News.cfm?id=25732&headline=Wheels%20in%20motion%20for%20%C2%A355m%20tram

I am interested in others' thoughts on the project - and whether James believes they would consider extending such a tram to ED like the glory days?

[silverfox]

Waste of time and money and would create traffic chaos

[KPinED]

Nice idea, would be quicker than the bus and cheaper than a tube extension, but my experience is that terrible traffic on that route is caused by the incessant digging up of the Walworth Road - and I imagine this would require many years of digging up the Walworth Road before we got the benefits!

[computedshorty]

There already exists a Rail link from Denmark Hill Station to Blackfiers Station, just befor it is a junction in Union Street should this be altered it could become the link using existing Railway lines into London Bridge Station.

There could of course be special Carriage trains to carry invalid passengers.

This would not involve much alteration only perhaps a siding at Winsor Walk and the additional branch connection at Union Street.

I remember a proposal that a new track was spoken of above the existing railway.

There is problems with street trams even located in their own space, will be held up because of other road trafic.

There is a lot to learn from those who have experienced living with for years with Trams.

[Undisputedtruth]

Actually trams are cost effective and green mode of travelling. Much favoured by the coalition government (see greenlight for trams document). Trams are currently enjoying a renaissance in Europe.

However, some people have raised concerns about the current scheme. Part of the tram journey would be in direct competition with the Northern line. The man behind the scheme has been involved in other similar projects where none have come to fruition. It may also clash with a possible future extension of the Bakerloo line along the Camberwell route.

Guys and Kings College hospitals may merge in the future and this is one of the drivers for this project. However, would it not be better to bring back the South London Line instead?

[davidh]

I was a supporter of ken livingstone's proposal for a tram from peckham to euston and beyond but I really cannot see that james barber's plan is of major benefit to many people

[Undisputedtruth]

computedshorty Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There already exists a Rail link from Denmark Hill

> Station to Blackfiers Station, just befor it is a

> junction in Union Street should this be altered it

> could become the link using existing Railway lines

> into London Bridge Station.

Blackfriar already links with London Bridge as part of Thameslink2000 projcet.

> There is problems with street trams even located

> in their own space, will be held up because of

> other road trafic.

>

> There is a lot to learn from those who have

> experienced living with for years with Trams.

Traffic management technolgy has moved on and so trams will be given priority to traffic given their ability to transport vast number of passengers.

[kford]

Will they run trambulances?

Sorry.

[DulwichFox]

"super tram" project linking Kings College Hospital and Guys Hospital at London Bridge.

Not a General East Dulwich Issue..

Needs Lounging..

Fox.

[Undisputedtruth]

Transport matters have a huge bearing on economic success for towns, cities and other areas.

Sidelining transport issues risks East Dulwich members being excluded from the wider debate. Just because you don't have anything useful to say on this matter, it doesn't mean others won't.

[neilson99]

Reduce road congestion? How exactly? PFI? The most expensive way of financing public infrastructure ever devised?

Waste of public money. Sort the roads out rather than worsen the designer traffic jam that was intentionally created, and keep open the Victoria - London Bridge, and the you have solved the problem, and I'd imagine haven't spent near on 50 million quid of tax payers money.

Only draw back, is that it isn't quite the vanity scheme that boosts politicians ego's, their profiles within their party and their chances of getting a nomination to a seat at Westminster.

Stick with the M&S/Waitrose idea James!

[nashoi]

?55m? I bet even Seb Coe couldn't announce that figure and keep a straight face. Ridiculous idea.

[kford]

?55m would just about cover the consultation.

Couldn't the old Eurostar spur at Wandsworth Road station be used? Denmark Hill to Waterloo would get you 200m away from St Thomas' and a short hop away from Guys.

What's with the hospital connection anyway? An easier sell?

[benmorg]

Rather than axing the Denmark Bridge to London Bridge rail service and spending millions on a tram, at great inconvenience to motorists and buses, why not simply keep the rail service?

[henryb]

I think it is great idea. If it got off the ground I think would be a fantastic success - as tram projects are in most cities. The sparks effect I think they call it. Large infrastructure public transport projects like this are the only real solution to congestion, pollution and lengthening journey times for all.

Unfortunately I can't see it happening. Southwark can't get a bus route extended without Bojo's approval. And lets face it why is he ever going to want to spend money in Southwark? It a labour strong hold with Tory Major - no chance.

[bil]

would be more useful to have the bakerloo line extended to peckham, camberwell green (or even denmark hill!)

[henryb]

I think the cost of any Bakerloo line extension would be about 4 billion pounds. It has been on the table since the 1940s and always rejected because of cost. It would be a dream though.

[Undisputedtruth]

It's not a dream, henryb. The Bakerloo line is a possibility and has been mentioned in a number of strategic rail reports. There are two possible routes. One going down the Old Kent Road and the other going through Camberwell and Peckham.

[spanglysteve]

benmorg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rather than axing the Denmark [Hill] to London

> Bridge rail service and spending millions on a

> tram, at great inconvenience to motorists and

> buses, why not simply keep the rail service?

This point exactly. The South London line already connects the two hospitals. Why spend millions builing a new unnesecary tram link. If Edinburgh Trams has taught us anything, it is that you can in no way build a tram for ?55m. The link below shows that a similar project in Preston has a budget of at least ?86m. ?55m would bearly cover professional fees and the required utilities diversions.

http://blogpreston.co.uk/2011/11/plans-for-preston-tram-remain-on-track-despite-funding-blow/

[silverfox]

James,

Spend some taxpayers' money and nip up to Blackpool and see how they do it there.

Plenty of space for trams. Cars not impeded.

Then take a walk from King's to Elephant and Castle and ask yourself the following:

Where will cyclists go?

Where will buses go?

If a bus can take 56 passengers and there is one every 10 minutes how many can a tram take and how often will they run?

See the Edinburgh fiasco - ?500m for a 20 mile circuit that was stopped short after years of construction disruption and led the Scottish Parliament to refuse to pay the last tranche of the money.

[angelica fernandes]

Trams in Australia are now the main public transport systems only in Melbourne, and to a much lesser extent, Adelaide and Bendigo. Most Australian cities in the past used to have extensive tram networks however these networks were largely dismantled during the 1950s through to early 1970's. Many of these trams are now kept in local museums in the various cities. In 1881 Australia's first tram was introduced, this new system involved running iron tracks across major way routes in the cities and was a vast improvement over dragging wheels through the muddy tracks that were roads at the time. This first tram was drawn by horse along Sydney Pitt Street, running from the Railway station to Circular Quay. However as these early trams required iron girders to run across the roads and extending above the level of the ground, these quickly caused general up roar as they damaged the wheels of other vehicles and obstructed the road, the tramline was soon after dismantled and closed just 5 years later in 1886.

[Jeremy]

People are talking about rail and tube links instead, but isn't the whole point of a tram is that it's vastly cheaper to build? ?55m sounds like a lot, but it's peanuts compared to the cost of tunneling out a tube extension.

I think the tram's a good idea in theory, but it would make the recent narrowing of Walworth road seem rather shorted sighted.

[benmorg]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> People are talking about rail and tube links

> instead, but isn't the whole point of a tram is

> that it's vastly cheaper to build? ?55m sounds

> like a lot, but it's peanuts compared to the cost

> of tunneling out a tube extension.

>

> I think the tram's a good idea in theory, but it

> would make the recent narrowing of Walworth road

> seem rather shorted sighted.

The rail link already exists, so why would a tunnel have to be built?

[Jeremy]

I was referring specifically to the bakerloo line by that point.

As for simply keeping the South London line - that would be great, but it seems that battle has already been lost. It is being scrapped in favour of other services, so I guess it's not logistically possible to keep it running.

[Lowlander]

silverfox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James,

>

> Spend some taxpayers' money and nip up to

> Blackpool and see how they do it there.

>

> Plenty of space for trams. Cars not impeded.

>

> Then take a walk from King's to Elephant and

> Castle and ask yourself the following:

>

> Where will cyclists go?

>

> Where will buses go?

>

> If a bus can take 56 passengers and there is one

> every 10 minutes how many can a tram take and how

> often will they run?

>

> See the Edinburgh fiasco - ?500m for a 20 mile

> circuit that was stopped short after years of

> construction disruption and led the Scottish

> Parliament to refuse to pay the last tranche of

> the money.

Edinburgh tram route almost halved and costs now ?776m. Due to start in 2014. NOT canned. Absolute fiasco I thnk they were due to start in 2010.