LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[david_carnell]

Roky Erickson Wrote:

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> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8713579/F

> ury-FIRE-ENGINE-gets-stuck-new-cycle-lane-Covid-fr

> iendly-traffic-measures.html

"Abi Babalola, 40, says her 10 minute school run now takes more than 30 minutes due to her having to weave her way around the streets of Brixton - even passing near to her home 'a number of times' in the process."

A 10 min car journey.

This is what this scheme is for. To make people change behaviour - stupid behaviour like this.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

I'm not going to say anything specific about anyone because I don't know their circumstances. However, 90% of stay at home parents whose journey involves a 10 min school run through the centre of Brixton could be choosing a different form of transport without undue hardship. And it's exactly those journeys that have to go.

[redpost]

And looking on street view, ferndale road is quite narrow with cars parked each side. Fire engines are going to get stuck there with planters or no planters - although no one complains when it's cars impeeding the emergency servcies.

In this case it looks like there should have been double yellows painted opposite the planter to stop the white car parking on the corner. Easily fixed.

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> I'm not going to say anything specific about

> anyone because I don't know their circumstances.

> However, 90% of stay at home parents whose journey

> involves a 10 min school run through the centre of

> Brixton could be choosing a different form of

> transport without undue hardship. And it's exactly

> those journeys that have to go.

[Rockets]

But really bad optics don't you agree - that type of image sticks and forms opinions. If there are no double-yellows why not - council oversight probably? Once again, it is what happens when you rush to implement something and demonstrates how poorly executed it is being done across the country and is wonderful ammunition for the anti-closure lobby.

[heartblock]

I?m not sure how many times one has to say... I do not drive, I walk and cycle, I have lived here on this road for 30 years and this is the worst it has ever been. I want less cars on all roads, but shunting more traffic on already polluted roads with high density residences is not a gain in health and environment for my neighbours. If I lived on a gated road in a lovely big house with a lovely big garden that would be great. People living on East Dulwich Grove in flat with no garden have to put up with noise and pollution for over four hours a day, while other residents have only local traffic.. it stinks of inequality.

[dougiefreeman]

heartblock Wrote:

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> I?m not sure how many times one has to say... I do

> not drive, I walk and cycle, I have lived here on

> this road for 30 years and this is the worst it

> has ever been. I want less cars on all roads, but

> shunting more traffic on already polluted roads

> with high density residences is not a gain in

> health and environment for my neighbours. If I

> lived on a gated road in a lovely big house with a

> lovely big garden that would be great. People

> living on East Dulwich Grove in flat with no

> garden have to put up with noise and pollution for

> over four hours a day, while other residents have

> only local traffic.. it stinks of inequality.

This.

[exdulwicher]

The Daily Mail "fury" article, like most Daily Mail articles in dangerous disingenuous bollocks.

LFB confirmed there was no delay in attending the call out, they support the LTN schemes and they were consulted on it.

[sim1]

Is there an East Dulwich Grove Residents Association through which to channel these issues? Personally, the changes are having a transformative and really positive impact on how my family gets about the area. However, judging from the various threads on here it seems to be mainly EDG residents that are negatively impacted by the changes in road layouts. Operating through a RA might give EDG residents a better way of working with the Council to find a solution to your specific problem? Apologies, you might already be doing this, was just a thought.

[heartblock]

https://www.peabody.org.uk/media/12948/guide-to-setting-up-ra.pdf

I thought about starting one....

[Metallic]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Roky Erickson Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8713579/F

>

> >

> ury-FIRE-ENGINE-gets-stuck-new-cycle-lane-Covid-fr

>

> > iendly-traffic-measures.html

>

> "Abi Babalola, 40, says her 10 minute school run

> now takes more than 30 minutes due to her having

> to weave her way around the streets of Brixton -

> even passing near to her home 'a number of times'

> in the process."

>

> A 10 min car journey.

>

> This is what this scheme is for. To make people

> change behaviour - stupid behaviour like this.

Unless you know this person and her family personally, I would steer clear of calling anyone stupid. For all you know she or one of her kids is disabled.

Stupid.

[Metallic]

sim1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is there an East Dulwich Grove Residents

> Association through which to channel these issues?

> Personally, the changes are having a

> transformative and really positive impact on how

> my family gets about the area. However, judging

> from the various threads on here it seems to be

> mainly EDG residents that are negatively impacted

> by the changes in road layouts. Operating through

> a RA might give EDG residents a better way of

> working with the Council to find a solution to

> your specific problem? Apologies, you might

> already be doing this, was just a thought.

When you have long, strung out roads with different housing types and ownership, it is hard to get an RA set up. My own road is pretty uniform in house style but even so the top and the bottom have very different issues.

[Shaggy]

I?m pretty confident she doesn?t have a disabled child. If she did, the report would have mentioned it.

?Person who needs to use a car to get her disabled child to school? is a much stronger line than ?person who wants to make a short local journey is inconvenienced by traffic?.

She is a good outside voice, though, because she is pretty typical of many road users who are very attached their cars. So I agree she isn?t stupid. She?s pretty normal. Sadly.

[sim1]

heartblock Wrote:

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> https://www.peabody.org.uk/media/12948/guide-to-se

> tting-up-ra.pdf

> I thought about starting one....

I would say go for it heartblock!

Metallic, I hear what you are saying, but if something very transformative happened on my road, the first thing I would do is to discuss it with my neighbours and work out a plan between us. Yes, there might be disagreements and different opinions and people be affected in a different way, but at least everyone on the affected road will have a chance to be involved. It's a better chance to being listened to seriously than individuals being shouty on various social media channels and online forums.

The situation is obviously not black and white, I don't think it's as simple as being pro-closure or anti-closure. Personally, I think we are moving in the right direction across London, but obviously it is going to be a very long process until the traffic beast is tamed. And for EDG at a very local level, getting together as an RA would I am sure help with working together more effectively with the Council.

[Spartacus]

What about expanding BARA to act as a voice for Local residents and businesses in East Dulwich ?

[exdulwicher]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/road-traffic-estimates-in-great-britain-2019

DfT stats out today for traffic.

Included in there is a stat that residential areas have seen a 36.4% increase in traffic since the 1990s.

[FairTgirl]

Is there much in this data and discussion about the role Google Maps and sat navs have to play in actively sending traffic down residential roads as well?

[slarti b]

exdulwicher Wrote:

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> Included in there is a stat that residential areas have seen a 36.4% increase in traffic since the

> 1990s.

Thanks for the link, there is some intersting stuff there, especially the table showing that pollution and CO2 emissions have fallen (up to 65% for NO) despite the overall increase in traffic.

How relevant is this to Soutwark though, do you have the equivalent figures for London? From memory, I think the TFL figures show a reduction in car useage over the last 20 years rather than a 36.4% increase, despite a big increase in population. Can you comment on that?

[exdulwicher]

FairTgirl Wrote:

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> Is there much in this data and discussion about

> the role Google Maps and sat navs have to play in

> actively sending traffic down residential roads as

> well?

It's not *really* DfT's remit to go down that route to be honest but there are countless studies and articles about the phenomenon, eg:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-12/navigation-apps-changed-the-politics-of-traffic

In the US in particular (where Waze is bigger than in the UK), communities have been reporting closed streets to Waze / Google on a rotating basis to try and get rid of some of the issues that it creates. You can search for it online, there are community blogs that describe it. Basically, it's the community trying to create their own LTN to counteract the issues of travel apps directing drivers off down residential roads.

[exdulwicher]

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> exdulwicher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Included in there is a stat that residential

> areas have seen a 36.4% increase in traffic since

> the

> > 1990s.

>

> Thanks for the link, there is some intersting

> stuff there, especially the table showing that

> pollution and CO2 emissions have fallen (up to 65%

> for NO) despite the overall increase in traffic.

>

> How relevant is this to Soutwark though, do you

> have the equivalent figures for London? From

> memory, I think the TFL figures show a reduction

> in car useage over the last 20 years rather than a

> 36.4% increase, despite a big increase in

> population. Can you comment on that?

There's a breakdown of it in this file:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/road-traffic-estimates-in-great-britain-2019

It downloads as a .zip, open it up and there are 9 folders, one is called Traffic by Local Authority (TRA89)

Open that one up and there are 7 spreadsheets in there. Top one is Vehicle Miles, the ones after that are broken down by various other rankings such as Car, miles excluding Trunk Roads and so on. It takes a LOT of reading!

[slarti b]

@ Ex Dulwicher. i have the TFL report at home and will check this evening, plus the Southwark traffic reports as well.

I am concerned that people cherry pick staistics such as a 36% increase in traffic and quote them out of context. Or in the case of the OHS consultation provide totally misleading statistics such as the 47% increase in ttraffci through DV.

also, I think you are professionally involved in traffic, what do you think of teh reduction in p;ollution shown by the DoT figures over the last 20 years?

[exdulwicher]

slarti b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @ Ex Dulwicher. i have the TFL report at home and

> will check this evening, plus the Southwark

> traffic reports as well.

>

> I am concerned that people cherry pick staistics

> such as a 36% increase in traffic and quote them

> out of context. Or in the case of the OHS

> consultation provide totally misleading statistics

> such as the 47% increase in ttraffci through DV.

>

>

> also, I think you are professionally involved in

> traffic, what do you think of teh reduction in

> p;ollution shown by the DoT figures over the last

> 20 years?

Apologies, I wasn't intending to cherry pick to show one side or the other of any argument - as this thread is concerned with predominantly residential roads, I thought it was worth mentioning as being of relevance to that (rather than say statistics about motorway miles which obviously doesn't apply to Dulwich!).

Pollution - that's not measured directly from vehicles, it's extrapolated from vehicle miles/type, average CO2 emissions and actual roadside measurements. The problem is that actual measurements include general pollution and you then model things like "25% of it is cars" and so on.

Since overall pollution has dropped - very dramatically in places - due to factors like closure of factories / mines, cleaner engines and various weather factors, it's difficult to attribute it directly. What's in there is a series of best guesses; pages 35-39 give a series of assumptions, info around changes to methodology and statistical analysis like sample size and there's a note in there too about changes to council boundaries which often has an effect the recorded level of traffic if a borough / county gains or loses some land during a boundary change.

[slarti b]

@exdulwicher Thanks, I will have a closer look at the pollution stats.

On the traffic increase stats, I think it is important in the context of this thread to quote stats taht are relevant to our area, or oas close as we can get. That means TFL & Southwark. To be frank I prefer TfL figures and analyis becuase they seem much more objective than Southwark.

[Earl Aelfheah]

exdulwicher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/road-traf

> fic-estimates-in-great-britain-2019

>

> DfT stats out today for traffic.

> Included in there is a stat that residential areas

> have seen a 36.4% increase in traffic since the

> 1990s.

Could it just possibly be that congestion is caused ? and air pollution is made worse ? not by cycleways, or opening streets to pedestrians, but by too many motor vehicles?!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Registered vehicles on UK roads:

1991: 20 million

2007: 27 million

2016: 37 million

2020: 38.3 million

(2022: 40 million)

[exdulwicher]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> exdulwicher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/road-traf

>

> > fic-estimates-in-great-britain-2019

> >

> > DfT stats out today for traffic.

> > Included in there is a stat that residential

> areas

> > have seen a 36.4% increase in traffic since the

> > 1990s.

>

> Could it just possibly be that congestion is

> caused ? and air pollution is made worse ? not by

> cycleways, or opening streets to pedestrians, but

> by too many motor vehicles?!

You wouldn't make a very good Daily Mail journalist or taxi driver would you?! ;-)