LTN: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3

[slarti b]

Very interesting report just released from the Dulwich Alliance. They have analysed the public commments on the Soutwark's Commonplace site that was set up to collect feedback on the road closures and other measures ss the part of the Council's Covid Streetspace scheme. Very conclusive result and I hope the Coucillors and Council officers will listen to this feedback and work with the community to address their concerns.

"Dulwich has spoken. It?s a ?no? to the road closures. Analysis of Southwark Council?s Streetspace feedback sites... suggests that 71% of respondents who expressed a view are opposed to the current road closures in Dulwich Village and East Dulwich ? a far cry from the ?vocal minority? cited by proponents of the scheme. More than 3 out of 4 (76%) indicated they are against the closures in Dulwich Village, including the 24/7 junction closure, while 62% are against the 24/7 closures in East Dulwich.

Full report available at the Dulwich Alliance website:

https://dulwichalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dulwich-has-Spoken.pdf

[Bicknell]

Thanks @slarti b. Intresting. Southwark Councils own feedback sites...

[Rockets]

Well done Dulwich Alliance - get an early blow in before the council has a chance to manipulate the figures - no doubt they will counter that the people on the closed roads are saying how great it is!!!! ;-)

[malumbu]

It's a shame that as so many of you have lots of free time you cannot use your time more productively in improving the world rather than use all your energy on a very parochial matter. Feedback is not a scientific survey of attitudes. Most just go with the flow.

[legalalien]

Do you not think that?s just a little bit ... troll-like?

You have no idea what anyone on here does with their free time. And nor does it matter.

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a shame that as so many of you have lots of

> free time you cannot use your time more

> productively in improving the world rather than

> use all your energy on a very parochial matter.

> Feedback is not a scientific survey of attitudes.

> Most just go with the flow.

[slarti b]

@Malumbu

What a strange comment. Are you suggesting we should ignore local democracy and an issue that is displacing traffic and causing congestion outside schools and on residential roads, harming local businesses and causing problems and disruption for the older and less mobile members of the local community?

The Council encouraged and directed people to register their feedback using this site. Unfortunately, 6 months after the road closures we have heard nothing back from them about the results. Since we cannot rely on Southwark to carry out an objective, timely analysis a group of local residents decided to do so themselves. What is your problem with that?

[Rockets]

@Malumbu

Your increasingly spiteful de-positioning of anyone who has a view differing to your own on this subject speaks volumes: it suggests you don't have a valuable contribution or rational argument for the points being raised so have descended to name calling and accusatory finger pointing at people you don't know anything about. A bit childish don't you think?

[exdulwicher]

Strongly disagree @malumbu.

It's imperative that people with opinions (good and bad) use that official Southwark website consultation. Shout about it on a forum or on Twitter or on any other website and Southwark can quite legitimately ignore it (it's not formal feedback).

I actually said many (many...) pages ago - not sure if it was on this thread or the related Melbourne Grove one - that talking about it on here was all well and good but the only thing Southwark are obliged to use is the consultation. I also said to post constructive comments because if you write "it's ****, I hate it all, you're all ****" then it'll get deleted as being abusive.

The Council encouraged and directed people to register their feedback using this site. Unfortunately, 6 months after the road closures we have heard nothing back from them about the results.

Well the consultation period is "up to 18 months" so there's no official requirement to produce a "results so far" tally. It's not the American elections! ;-)

[DulwichCentral]

What I find odd, whether it's how people choose to spend their free time or not, is that people here talk in the present tense - Slarti B: "and issue that *is* displacing traffic and causing congestion outside schools and on residential roads, harming local businesses and causing problems and disruption for the older and less mobile members of the local community."

When in reality - we've been in lockdown since Christmas and the roads are very quiet. Look out the window. To keep banging on that it's 'hell out there' on a daily basis, when it clearly isn't at the moment, seems a little hysterical - and erm, dare I say it - disingenuous.

The fact that we have been in and out of lockdown since the measures were put in place makes it quite difficult to tell what the reality is.

[Bicknell]

Think people on croxted road have a pretty good idea of what the reality is @DulwichCentral

[ab29]

Or on Lordship Lane. Or East Dulwich Grove. And many others.

Bicknell Wrote:

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> Think people on croxted road have a pretty good

> idea of what the reality is @DulwichCentral

[DulwichCentral]

Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove are very quiet at the moment and have been since lockdown. That's my point. People here say 'it's awful' every day - there is never any mention of 'well not right now because we're in lockdown'. I can't imagine Croxted is bad at the moment either. It's quiet everywhere.

ab29 Wrote:

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> Or on Lordship Lane. Or East Dulwich Grove. And

> many others.

>

>

> Bicknell Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Think people on croxted road have a pretty good

> > idea of what the reality is @DulwichCentral

[tiddles]

Perhaps we should also consult with the many educational staff whose journeys to work have been incredibly convoluted. A teacher commuting from Paxton green area to dkh has been impacted enormously, and there are clear indicators the Crystal Palace staff have their 10/15 min journeys become a 50 min one. Staff moving between schools are similarly impacted. They are often carrying books and other materials not easily packed into a single carrier bag let alone being able to use public transport for their particular journeys.

Can we not just assume it is lack of a will or laziness that people are very concerned about the impact of these Ltns (and of course the rise in dangerous pollution on the other roads)

[DulwichCentral]

A cycle ride from Paxton Green to Dog Kennel Hill - with panniers for books - takes about 15 minutes. My child has been taught climate change since primary school. There are posters about climate change all over schools. Kids have anxiety about it. Are they taught climate science by teachers who have no other way of getting around than driving 15 minutes to school?

tiddles Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps we should also consult with the many

> educational staff whose journeys to work have been

> incredibly convoluted. A teacher commuting from

> Paxton green area to dkh has been impacted

> enormously, and there are clear indicators the

> Crystal Palace staff have their 10/15 min journeys

> become a 50 min one. Staff moving between schools

> are similarly impacted. They are often carrying

> books and other materials not easily packed into a

> single carrier bag let alone being able to use

> public transport for their particular journeys.

>

> Can we not just assume it is lack of a will or

> laziness that people are very concerned about the

> impact of these Ltns (and of course the rise in

> dangerous pollution on the other roads)

[slarti b]

exdulwicher Wrote:

>" It's imperative that people with opinions (good and bad) use that official Southwark website."

What is a "bad" opinion, one that disagrees with Southwark's measures? :-)

>" Southwark can quite legitimately ignore it (it's not formal feedback) "

It may not be formal feed back but it is the forum that Southwark councillors, cabinet members, officers and our local Labour MP have all said is where residents should place their feedback. Indeed, to quote the Soutwark website

"We want to hear from you about the effects of these closures . Please use the map below to identify locations where there have been impacts as a result of these changes."

If they ignore the comments they have been, at the very least highly deceitful if not deliberatley dishonest.

>"Well the consultation period is "up to 18 months" so there's no official requirement to produce a 'results so far' tally.

My understanding of the Emergency TMO's is that they are temporary and, at the end of the 18 months period the council has to carry out a consultation to see if they are to be made permanent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

However, we were also told that the Council will monitor the effects and, if necessary adjust them or try alternatives. Indeed you have often championed the concept of trial interventions which can be fine tuned and adjusted. Or have you changed your mind?

7 months after the closure of Calton\DV junction has provided plenty of time to assess the impact and, given teh effect on the "displacment roads" surely now is a good time to try an alternative approach, eg timed closures as used elsewhere in the area. That is of course if the Council sticks to it word, which you seem to suggest they should not be expected to .

[slarti b]

@DulwichCentral

You make a fair point that the worst of the congestion has eased over the last few weeks becuase of lockdown but that doesn't alter the underlying issues which will return once lockdone eases.

After 7 months of the Calton\DV closure the feedback is clear and it is a good opportunity for Southwark to have a re-think and consider adjusting or altering the scheme before lockdown ends and teh traffic starst building up again.

I haven't been outside much but,even in this lockdown period, I have heard from several people about massive congestion on Croxted road.

[legalalien]

From today?s Times

The Times view on Covid street closures and cycle lanes: Road Rancour.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-covid-street-closures-and-cycle-lanes-road-rancour-fmcstn3jm

[exdulwicher]

What is a "bad" opinion, one that disagrees with Southwark's measures? :-)

I should probably have used the word "experiences" rather than opinions. Apologies.

However, we were also told that the Council will monitor the effects and, if necessary adjust them or try alternatives. Indeed you have often championed the concept of trial interventions which can be fine tuned and adjusted. Or have you changed your mind?

Not at all - IMO it's still far and away the best method to ascertain what works, what doesn't and what (with a bit of tweaking) might. However 6 months is more or less the minimum to get the data before you start changing things around. That's the whole reason that the legislation allows for up to 18 months.

As @DulwichCentral mentions, the travel and traffic patterns at the moment are completely changed from "normal" so a longer baseline period is essential in order to work out the actual effects and perhaps extrapolate back to "normal". Whether or not we return to normal any time in the next 6 months is very much up in the air but that's possibly a discussion for a Covid or politics thread. ;-)

[Metallic]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a shame that as so many of you have lots of

> free time you cannot use your time more

> productively in improving the world rather than

> use all your energy on a very parochial matter.

> Feedback is not a scientific survey of attitudes.

> Most just go with the flow.

Sorry but the MP and councillors directed everyone to that site to record what they thought about the scheme, so it isn't any use now moaning that it isn't worthy of looking at. Congratulations to the Dulwich Alliance on the report.

[Spartacus]

Interestingly Croydon has agreed to remove the LTN in Crystal Palace

https://democracy.croydon.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=595

This may happen by Feb 12th and there are questions still over the use of ANPR schemes to control traffic however the decision was based on resident pressure and consultation feedback.

Does this imply hope for Southwark doing the right thing and running consultations and listening to the results ?

[exdulwicher]

From today?s Times

The Times view on Covid street closures and cycle lanes: Road Rancour.

Last week, The Telegraph ran two pieces in three days; the first arguing that LTNs were great, we needed more of them, the second arguing exactly the opposite.

Newspapers like this, it's good for clickbait.

[Rockets]

@DulwichCentral - I think you will find that the majority of statements about awful traffic were before this latest lockdown. Of course the roads are much quieter now (although I hasten to add much busier than during the first lockdown) but the LTN displacement roads were beyond awful before we went into this lockdown. One wonders how the council will aggregate this into their monitoring and analysis because when life returns to normal things will return to being hellish on Lordship Lane, EDG etc etc. I am really interested to see how they present/manipulate this.

The worm seems to be beginning to turn on LTNs.

[exdulwicher]

One wonders how the council will aggregate this into their monitoring and analysis

The DfT National Travel Attitudes Survey has just come out, this has some good info around changes in transport patterns.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/956170/national-travel-attitudes-study-wave-4-final.pdf

The modelling is beginning to catch up with "normal" (pre-Covid), lockdown, the initial easing of Lockdown 1, LTN implementation, Lockdown 2 and so on but it's a lot of data to crunch.

Reports like that one ^^ really help from.a national point of view.

[Rockets]

Ex- it will also be essential to see local data. National data demonstrates macro trends not local ones. It would be a foolhardy path for the council to follow if they try and model national changes to determine local impact.

They had strips down for periods over both the lockdown and the much more relaxed lockdown so we know they have the data and we know that what many of us could see when we were walking around Dulwich on the displacement roads the council can see too in the data.

More broadly, those national figures are interesting and validate how people are changing their habits but I would challenge that these changes will not continue once lockdown lifts. Yes everyone is walking and cycling more - why, because their world extends about 1 mile in each direction at the moment no further. Parents were working from home whilst their children went to school so more people could take their children to school on their bikes and get back home in time for their first work commitment of the day. It's why Dulwich Park/Peckham Rye/Brockwell Park are absolutely rammed as they are only option for most people in the locality to get some exercise and fresh air.

Covid has been a massive catalyst for modal shifts in transportation but soon, hopefully, things will begin to return to some semblance of normality and those modal shifts will swing back when people's world's begin extending. That's why we saw the traffic chaos on the displacement roads when the first lockdown was eased.

[heartblock]

https://dulwichalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Dulwich-has-Spoken.pdf