EU Trade Talks Thread

[stepdown]

Sacking the Secretary of State who got Stormont back up and running does seem unfair. Unsurprisingly suspected to be revenge for not believing in Brexit enough:

"I hear Julian Smith sacking is linked to his comments at the height of the Brexit tension last autumn.

He told MPs no deal would be ?very, very bad? for NI"

[Blah Blah]

Is Boris planning to stuff his cabinet with those that would support a no deal scenario if it comes to that?

[Blah Blah]

Geez, Savid Javid resigns after being told he had to get rid of all of his advisors if he wanted to keep his job!

[diable rouge]

Wow, that's propa breaking news, reshuffle blown out of the water...

[TheCat]

I posted this in another thread...but this seems to be where it's being discussed....

For context - I didn't vote conservative recently, despite my leaver credentials on this forum. For me the question of government or leave are totally separate.

But, in anycase, after the election I was prepared to give Boris the benefit of the doubt, despite his patchy record with the truth etc. But I must say this forcing out of javid does concern me.

They wanted him to change his advisors, so really they wanted to keep him as a figurehead to show stability, but number 10 would actually make the decisions in the chancellory...

Hmmmm.......

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> For me the question of government or leave are totally

> separate.

Can you expand on this please...

[Sephiroth]

"Can you expand on this please..."

I know many people on the left and on the right (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither side can see the problem with leaving and The Other Lot getting in)

So I don't think Cat is unique or needs to expand much - to me it just reads that people all had their own reasons for leaving

It's why so many insist "I know what I voted for" - but rarely acknowledge that might be for very different reasons to other leave voters (I think Cat has said they do acknowledge this in the past tbf)

[TheCat]

Ha...as soon as I posted that I thought that bit might be the focus....

Sephiroths comments are very fair.

For what it's worth....the short comment to make is that the referendum vote was for the next 50 odd years, and if you were influenced by people like garage, Johnson, rees-mogg etc....then I feel this is conflating the politicians of the moment with a much more structural, longer term decision.

I appreciate the counter argument is that these are the people that will negotiate our exit. And to be fair...that is unfortunate.....

[TheCat]

As an aside, I thi nk the juxtaposition highlighted in sephiroths post is worth flagging. It highlights the difference in outlook between many leavers and remainers. The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included), but the shorter term implementation risks and detail were more important to many remainers

And it's this incongruous way of looking at it that maybe promotes so much division....apples and oranges.....

[stepdown]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I know many people on the left and on the right

> (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither

> side can see the problem with leaving and The

> Other Lot getting in)

I think it's more that they can put up with the "wrong" party for 5 years if it means they get the Brexit they want, but it's definitely true Leave/Remain isn't drawn along the usual party lines.

[Sephiroth]

"The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included)"

but again the longer term concept is irreconcilably different amongst many leavers - never mind Remainers. Therefore it will forever be a mirage and never a remote possibility. That's the problem that most remainers see - apples and oranges are different fruit and people will have their own preference. But leave vs remain is Unicorn vs Dog(or cat, according to preference)

It's profoundly irresponsible

[stepdown]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> but again the longer term concept is

> irreconcilably different amongst many leavers -

> never mind Remainers. Therefore it will forever be

> a mirage and never a remote possibility.

You won't find any disagreement from me on that front.

[diable rouge]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Can you expand on this please..."

>

> I know many people on the left and on the right

> (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither

> side can see the problem with leaving and The

> Other Lot getting in)

But surely that only applies to Labour leave voters. Tory leave voters could vote for their natural side.

I just thought it was interesting that Cat as a leaver didn't vote Tory, the only party on the Leave side that could realistically win and deliver Brexit. It seems to go against the grain of how most people voted, i.e. ignoring political allegiances and voting along the lines of leave or remain instead. I was interested in hearing the backstory to his position...

[Sephiroth]

"But surely that only applies to Labour leave voters. Tory leave voters could vote for their natural side."

well yes, in this election

But that makes non-tory leave voters worse - because clearly brexit NOW will be shaped by (waves hand at whatever this government is) as they were always going to be elected in this election. But just as Corbyn fans (not saying Cat is one) imagined He would win ( I know, I know), they imagined their own version of brexit

But even then - tory leave voters have to accept there will come a time when they won't have power - and then (waves hand at whatever the opposition is now) will be doing a lot of things they won't like

Basically all leavers on all sides could only see the (mostly imaginary) benefits as applicable to them, and dismissed any Actually Very Serious downsides

[diable rouge]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But that makes non-tory leave voters worse -

> because clearly brexit NOW will be shaped by

> (waves hand at whatever this government is) as

> they were always going to be elected in this

> election. But just as Corbyn fans (not saying Cat

> is one) imagined He would win ( I know, I know),

> they imagined their own version of brexit

Absolutely, I've previously asked the question of Lexiters on here are they comfortable knowing that Brexit is fast becoming what a lot of remainers said it would, namely a conduit for the Tory hard right, increasingly creeping towards a quasi-authoritarian government, and replies back came there none...

[JohnL]

Sajid Javid leaving should give dissident Tories someone to coalesce around - aren't many compared to the May years but it's a start.

Don't think Sajid won't hold a grudge here - he will as the Metro says he's been thrown under a bus (pun intended I think).

[keano77]

EU spending tens of millions of euros a year to promote meat eating

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/14/eu-spending-tens-of-millions-of-euros-a-year-to-promote-meat-eating

Well done EU. Glad to see you?re spending MY money on something I agree with.

[JohnL]

GlobalMeatNews.com (I bet no-one had heard of them) suggest we all do it

https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/02/08/Joint-marketing-activities-announced-by-UK-meat-levy-boards

[Alan Medic]

The new SOS for NI says there will be no border down the Irish sea. This border I understood was an implication of the signed WA. Is the UK Gov planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the island?

[Sephiroth]

"Is the UK Gov planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the island?"

yes

Is this despicable and irresponsible?

Yes

[diable rouge]

I took it as the usual dick-swinging from the UK, but if they go ahead with it, good luck with all those future trade deals, reneging on such a fundamental aspect of an agreement is never a good look...

[Sephiroth]

"I took it as the usual dick-swinging from the UK"

This is an element. But I also think "this government continue to underestimate ALL of the logistical, cultural, political, economic challenges" is way underpriced

[keano77]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The new SOS for NI says there will be no border

> down the Irish sea. This border I understood was

> an implication of the signed WA. Is the UK Gov

> planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the

> EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the

> island?

As I have previously pointed out on the Brexit thread.

It has always been the case that EU states have to erect a border against non EU states. Don?t ask me under what EU Law or directive because I?ve never read them nor never will.

An independent Scotland within the EU would need to erect such a border that would make Hadrian?s wall look like a flimsy picket fence.

Anyway, to change tack, I see EU members are crapping themselves again because they?ve got to cough up more money to cover the UK?s contributions.

[Sephiroth]

I thought it was Britain that wanted to take back control of its borders keano? Was that not the case? You have a better plan for Ireland?

[JohnL]

Dom Cummings so creeps me out. What is the Super Forecasting - does it involve astral travel and why is eugenics involved.