Cemeteries now open except for services, Camberwell New on Sundays, others daily

[Renata Hamvas]

updated post.

Cemeteries are now open except for when services are occurring. As Camberwell New is in use Monday-Saturday,it is only open to the public on Sundays. Camberwell Old and Nunhead are open daily except for services for which they will be closed for general access. They will open at lunchtime following morning interments and will open in the afternoon after afternoon funerals.

Renata

[KidKruger]

Any idea why Renata ?

I can't think of any dangers in cemeteries that are not same in parks.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Kidkruger, it's due to the very sad situation that at the moment we are seeing/going to see an increased need for funerals and cremations due to Covid-19 related deaths.

Renata

[TheTruthisOut]

The regulations, as they stand, refer only to the closure of crematoria. It is stated that clarification is being sought on whether the closure also applies to burial grounds. I wonder if you know, Renata, if this clarification has been obtained?

[rollflick]

(edited)

The virus is an unfolding national tragedy but that should not mean public authorities making up the law as they go along, as we've sadly seen with certain police forces. That brings the law into disrepute and hinders the widespread compliance for a long time that we are likely to need to flatten the peak, rather than just move it back a few weeks.

Last week's Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 do not apply to cemeteries (just crematoriums) and even make an exception to the ban on gatherings for funerals: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/5/made

There is no particular health risk from a funeral, so long as you keep at least 2m, which is new guidance issued today advises families of the bereaved to keep funerals small: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-for-care-of-the-deceased/guidance-for-care-of-the-deceased-with-suspected-or-confirmed-coronavirus-covid-19

In any event the burial grounds locally are very large with much of their area without space for new plots. And surely most people would now of all times leave space for people to grieve.

The cemeteries have been far quieter than parks and tranquil places for quiet reflection in these difficult times. Today I found Nunhead Cemetery closed so for the first time went into Brockley Cemetery which was lovely with bluebells out.

[TheTruthisOut]

PM sent

[kiera]

Renata - could you please post a copy of the government directive to local authorities to close cemeteries.

The only justification I have been referred to by a council officer relates only to crematoria, as has already been stated by others on here.

I'd like to understand why the council has taken this step, as cemeteries are not even mentioned in the Regulations and it makes no sense to close cemeteries while leaving parks open.

[KidKruger]

kiera - "...cemeteries are not even mentioned in the Regulations and it makes no sense to close cemeteries while leaving parks open."

This was my point earlier in the thread, ie. where is the sense in closing cemeteries across the borough when it flies in the face of parks needing to be open for people's well-being?

No-one is saying cemeteries are parks, but for Nunhead cemetery specifically, it's massively utilised by those needing space rather than grieving/visiting graves.

I don't know about the detail of regulation, but reducing outside spaces in the most infected borough in the UK seems like a strategy aimed at trying to spread the disease (not saying it is), when inevitably the people trying to get out each day can only utilise the remaining open space.

[rollflick]

As a matter of statutory interpretation, the legislation only closes crematoriums not burial grounds:

"5(8) A person who is responsible for a crematorium or burial ground must ensure that, during the emergency period, the crematorium is closed to members of the public, except for funerals or burials." [see ref in my msg above]

And as a matter of public health, the cemeteries locally are less risk of transmission than the overcrowded parks.

Despite this, Southwark has just sent an email to residents (COVID-19: an update for residents (1 April)), which ends on this subject:

"Cemeteries and crematoriums

In line with national government legislation during this emergency period, we have closed all of our cemeteries and our crematorium grounds, to all but those attending funerals. This will make the areas safer for grieving family and friends, at an incredibly difficult time, as well as maintain public safety. We will also be limiting the number of people able to attend funerals to 10, in an approach consistent with other boroughs. We know how sensitive these matters are, but must follow public health advice and discourage large gatherings, to help protect our residents from COVID-19."

Southwark's claim it's being consistent with other boroughs simply does not accord with reality, e.g.:

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/bereavement-services/changes-due-to-coronavirus

"We suggest that you do not visit the cemetery or crematoria grounds during this time unless you are attending a funeral but if you do please observe social distancing and take any litter home with you.

Currently, cemetery grounds are open to the public during the normal advertised hours."

[KateWilliamson]

Interesting. Thanks

[Sue]

Could it just be that whoever drafted 5(8) wasn't sufficiently careful about the wording?

[ianr]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Due to a government directive that was

> issued last night to local authorities,

> all cemeteries are closed until further

> notice. This will therefore be applying

> to all Southwark Cemeteries and to

> those in other boroughs too.

Where can we see this directive?

[Abe_froeman]

Suspect this is just a cynical money saving exercise by the council.

[ruffers]

Why woudl it be cynical if they need to save money?

[pablogrande]

I assume there's various reasons

Not essential place to go during current crisis

Council staff will have been cut down to prevent spread so physical opening/closing will be affected

There will be increase in funerals

difficult to look after from police perspective

[Abe_froeman]

It could be cynical if the scenario was that they reduce services taxpayers pay for instead of reducing payments to councillors or pay rises to those implementing the service reductions etc - that's one hypothetical. there are otherse

[JohnL]

Lots of councils across the UK are shutting cemeteries and saying it's a government directive - but as said earlier Lambeth are not - which is confusing.

[Penguin68]

The government directive is about avoiding crowds, so cremations have to be attended by immediate family only, and ideally those sharing the household only. No attended services. No burials either, I think, except for Moslems and I think orthodox Jews for whom cremation is not religiously acceptable. This is about avoiding crowds at ceremonies. As most 'gardening' work in cemeteries can be undertaken (sorry) with full social distancing there is no reason to stop that, I would have thought. Our local cemeteries are all small parks, but with a surprising number of paths (to get to all the grave sites) and hence a lot of walking space to allow social distancing. Many more paths per area than in a 'normal' park, in fact. Closing them is all about social control - like the Derbyshire Police drones - and not actually about social distancing. It's quite a Stalinist approach - so no surprises there.

[Sissi81]

I think this is a disgrace. Poorly thought out and reactionary. Locals rely on these spaces and they are identified as valuable open spaces within Southwarks own Open Space strategy. During these tough times safe occasional exercise by residents, utilising all the available open spaces locally is vitally important. Simply because we don?t want everyone crowded into the last remaining parks(!)

Even if there will be increased burials this can surely be managed.

Currently the new cemetery is being policed by a council worker. Due to there being no signage people are walking into the recreational field adjoining and then finding themselves trapped by heras fencing/ padlocks / rope at all the normal exit points(!) the only northern exit point is via a very narrow long path - which is increasing risk to locals.

In summary nonsensical and poorly actioned.

Southwark please sort this out - and give the locals their access back. Even in part would be appreciated - perhaps during certain hours at least?

[KidKruger]

Well said Sissi81

[Abe_froeman]

It's especially non-sensical if they've also banned any actual burials.

[yorksgirl]

Renata, in light of the post by SIssi81 could you please act to ensure that access to Honor Oak Recreation Ground is restored and maintained as soon as possible. It appears that some Council staff may be trying to use the current situation to unlawfully close it to the public.

[KidKruger]

Same for Nunhead Cemetery please Renata.

Or pls advise (pm) contact no. and name of dept/officer to speak with.

[JohnL]

The below statement on the FONC site

https://www.fonc.org.uk/component/content/article/93-nunhead-cemetery-closed.html

links to this

https://www.iccm-uk.com/iccm/wp-content/library/Joint%20Statement%20on%20Coronavirus%20Act%202020.pdf

the only relevant part of is

"Clarification is currently being sought on if this same requirement to close applies to burial grounds."

So no doubt waiting on that clarification

[KidKruger]

if waiting clarification, opened the darned cemeteries.