Applying for primary schools

[Skegness]

The seach facility on the ofsted site not a bad starting point, kamath. Gives a rough idea, anyway.

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/schools/for-parents-and-carers/find-school-inspection-report

[kamath]

Thank you Skegness - that is perfect - just what I was after ! x

[njc97]

Skegness - apparently HA are having open days at Pepys Road site on: Wed 14 Nov 9-10, Thur 29 Nov 2-3 and Thur 10 Jan.

(this is according to my wife, I couldnt see on their website where they got the info from). There's still a risk they won't get funding, as I understand it, so worth looking at other schools as well.

[Skegness]

Thanks, njc97. I am a bit confused because HA have so many bits to their school now and practically all of them are operating out of the Pepys Road site at the moment! There is the upper half of the secondary school, the lower half of the existing Temple Grove primary phase (temporarily because their usual site in Camplin Road has burned down), and now the proposed new Free primary school as well. The Free school is the only one we'd stand some chance of getting into based on distance door to door to Pepys Road- we're definitely too far away from Camplin Road. I'm not sure if the advertised open days are for the primary that will be moving back to Camplin Road or for the Free school, iyswim. Or maybe they are combining both?

Anyway, I will definitely be looking at other schools too. Even if the Free school is opening there isn't any guarantee we'd get a place or even that we'd want it as a first choice- HA is rather untested on primary education, after all. My elder children went to Hollydale (our nearest) and on the whole we were very pleased with it and it will most probably be our first choice for our youngest too. Edmund Waller and John Stainer both sound nice as well and I'm planning to visit both, though the catchment for JS is microscopic! Ivydale is also very popular with parents round here but likely to be massively oversubscribed due to a recent bulge class meaning that siblings will fill many of the available places, so I might give that one a miss as it's not quite as close to us. I feel a bit guilty even considering a free school, to be honest, but the stress of secondary school applications is very fresh in my mind and I just cannot deny how tempting it is to choose a school that would allow us to bypass potential secondary transfer trauma in the future!

Where is everyone else thinking of visiting/applying?

[simonethebeaver]

I have a question. We're a way off this but as things stand, we are in a black hole between schools and have a real risk of being sent across Southwark. Do kids in this position tend to get places closer to home quite quickly? Also, we are completely opposed to faith schools and will not be naming one in our six, even though one is within the closest six. If allocated one anyway, can we turn it down on the grounds that we do not want our child educated in this way? I would have thought ECHR principles come into play?

[Skegness]

There is a lot of movement after the initial offers of places. People move in and out of area, change their mind, choose a private school instead etc etc. Most people eventually end up with a place at a school where they are more or less satisfied to send their child. Some start off quite unhappy with the allocated school but are pleasantly surprised. Re being offered a faith school, yes, it can happen and yes, you can turn it down. BUT BUT BUT and BUT again, before you turn down whatever school you're offered, you need to ask yourself "is this really better than NO school at all?" and be able to answer honestly "yes", just in case that is your only and final offer. The usual advice is to accept the place for the moment and join the waiting lists for the schools you like more. If you really are not prepared to send your child to the offered school and you don't get any further offers you need to have some other education plan in place such as home education or private schooling.

I sympathise on the faith school thing- I would not want to send my child to a faith school either, as an atheist. Also faith schools that are not oversubscribed are usually shite. But I seriously doubt being offered a place at a faith school would reach the legal threshold of breaching your human rights, tbh. Do you think it would be cruel and degrading or something?! Or were you thinking of article 8? That's a qualified right, I think, and the threshold is quite high- v unlikely to apply in this situation. But you never know!

Being a parent in London (and particularly Southwark where there is a shortage of school places, a plethora of academies and free schools and where the local authority's role in education becomes weaker by the hour) requires quite a bit of compromise on education, I fear, if like most people you need or want to use state schools. It's rubbish but that's the reality. Atheists end up at church schools, people who are desperate for a proper local comp end up sending their kids miles away to academies run by meglomaniacs and carpet salesmen, parents who would prefer mixed settings end up with children in in single sex schools etc. There are some good primary schools that few middle class people will touch with a bargepole and a few middle class ghetto type schools situated in pockets of privilege with tiny catchments. You just have to find the least worst option, if none of the available options fit in with your world view. The only good thing (and it is a very, very good thing) is that the vast majority of children I know attending state schools in the local area seem settled and happy and to be making good academic progess.

[simonethebeaver]

I was thinking Article 9 actually-freedom of religion or belief. I'm surprised that the LA are not obliged to offer you another school if you have a fundamental objection to the faith teaching at a school. It beggars belief that so much public money subsidises schools that can reject children on the basis of religion and who teach questionable religious theory. I'm all for the teaching of comparative religion and multiculturalism but I won't have my child indoctrinated.

Most of our applications will be Lewisham as we are closer to them than most Southwark schools. I would be thrilled for my daughter to attend any of the primaries nearby other than the faith schools. But as you say, what I would really like to avoid is a bugger of a journey to an indifferent school.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Simonethebeaver, I would suggest you apply for your 6 closest community schools. If you do get offered a school you're not keen on, I would suggest you accept and wait and see what happens with your waiting list positions.

Renata

[simonethebeaver]

As I said, a way off for us, although not long. But there is just no way I would apply for, or accept a place, at a faith school.

[Carbonara]

simonthebeaver - are you aware that under the National Curriculum all community schools are required by law to hold 'acts of collective worship', that these must be wholly or mainly Christian, and that Christianity must be taught as RE? http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=6019874

But it is widely interpreted / flouted by schools.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/24/schools-not-teaching-religious-studies http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14794472

[Saffron]

Wow, I wasn't aware of that! Reading those links actually made me feel a bit sick. How can schools enforce "collective worship" on someone who doesn't believe in "worship"? (Well, obviously a lot of them don't -- for good reason).

[Jessie]

i was withdrawn from RE at comprehensive school (atheist family), but my basic lack of Christianity was a massive disadvantage studying literature at univeristy.

[simonethebeaver]

Yes, totally aware. I actually studied RE to a high(ish) level too, despite being an atheist. My experience of non-faith primaries is that the act of collective worship is often used to teach comparative religion and culture, and I'm happy with that. What I disagree with is schools that do NOT teach religion as culture but instead dictate one belief as 'the truth'. I also think no state-funded school should be able to reject children on faith grounds.

[Carbonara]

There's a big difference between studying RE as an academic subject, learning about the religions that have shaped philosophy, art, literature, and an understanding of which can contribute to diversity and social cohesion, and conducting acts of worship - actually practicing the religion - in educational school time.

People can practise religion in their own way at home and in their place of worship. What is it's place in a state finded community school?

Learning about religions is inclusive. An act of Christian worship in a multicultural school is potentially divisive.

[Saffron]

Yes, wondering if students who are exempt from worship get bullied for it?

[Jessie]

I'd be shocked and surprised to learn of an inner London non-faith school practising acts of Christian worship

[Saffron]

I'm not even opposed to faith-based schools receiving state funding. Some parents want a religious or alternative, or spiritual upbringing for the their children, including formal schooling. That's fine. We're all different, we all want different things. But the legislation the way it is appears to suggest that non-faith schools must also enforce worship. And that's the bit I find confusing and disturbing.

[simonethebeaver]

But Saffron, state funding for faith schools reduces the school places available for everyone, surely? For us, for example, it means two of our six closest schools are not possibles for us. The schools select their pupils from faith groups, so children outside that faith are excluded from education. Religion should fund its own schools.

I was at an assembly at a local primary yesterday. (I have a child at the school-I'm not a weirdo!). It was based on the theme of friendship. The kids sang some songs, including a round of Sweet Chariot. Other assemblies have included Chinese New Year, poetry, Eid and the circus. I think 'collective worship' is interpreted pretty widely. In an ideal world, the requirement wouldn't exist but I think most schools take a comparative approach.

[njc97]

Skegness - I think they must be combining the open days, but it was my wife who told me about it. I think you (we) get to visit the current temporary Temple Grove set-up to see what the new free school will be like (as it's the same philosophy etc and also the the free school will be in those temporary class rooms to begin with).

As you say, it'll take some of the worry out of seconday applications. But it's a new school, so they'll be bound to be teething problems and I dont know about my son being the oldest year throughout. We'll also be visiting Hollydale and Edmund Waller to consider them and maybe John Stainer for interest. There's another bugle class as JS this year, together with the free school opening might make their catchment area a bit more reasonable.

[njc97]

Skegness, sorry more news. Apparently the new free school is having "information sessions" on 26 Novemeber at 5 to6 and 6 to 7, plus a further date in January. Letters setting this out on the way to everyone now....

PS sorry to everyone else for this re-appearing at the top of the threadlist

[Skegness]

Thanks very much, njc97. Really appreciate you posting to let me know. I've booked onto the 26th November evening. We must live v close as those are the 4 schools we're visiting too! Maybe see you there. I know children at all 3 of the "existing" primaries and they are all thriving and happy, btw.

[Bouncy]

Hi Simonethebeaver - I feel the same as you (both about religious teaching in schools and the issues with the system), and yes, it's true: there is a fundamental inequality in access to local, state-funded schools depending on whether you subscribe to and demonstrate commitment to a particular faith.

Though state religious and non-faith schools are both funded under the same system, they are allowed to set different admissions criteria. (In Lewisham, at least, where I live) non-faith school have to adhere to the LA's policy, which transparently allocates places according to distance, siblings, SEN status, distance to school, etc. Faith schools, however, define their own criteria - which allow them to discriminate based on 'faith.'

As you say, this means that non-religious families have less chance of getting into a local state primary than religious families - though the schools are funded by the same pot of public money.

Compounding this problem is the lack of acknowledgement of it in the centralised admissions system ? all families are allowed to apply for up to 6 places, regardless of whether they are religious: though if a religious and a non-religious family, equivalent in all other ways, living next door to one another, applied to the same 6 most local state schools, the former would have more chance of a place if any of these were faith schools.

What amazes me is the lack of (local or national) political interest / appetite for changing this. I guess that voting behaviours among religious parents / middle class parents pretending a faith in order to play the system and have more choice (and why not, if you can stomach the indoctrination of your children?) serve as a disincentive.

[Saffron]

simonethebeaver Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But Saffron, state funding for faith schools

> reduces the school places available for everyone,

> surely? For us, for example, it means two of our

> six closest schools are not possibles for us. The

> schools select their pupils from faith groups, so

> children outside that faith are excluded from

> education.

Yes, that does appear to be the case. I wouldn't dispute that in some circumstances state funding for faith schools complicates the placement system. I'm still not opposed to faith-based school receiving funding. (And I'm saying that as someone who is highly unlikely to send my child to a faith school.) BUT, I would agree that the system for allocating that funding and for allocating student places is rubbish. Actually, there is plenty about the state funded standard education system that I find less than ideal.

> Religion should fund its own schools.

There was an lively debate on free schools (including religious context) in the Drawing Room a while back, which is more in line with this discussion than the OP's original topic. So, posting link for anyone interested. :) http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?27,745792,page=1

[LondonMix]

I actually disagree, Simonthebeaver. If there are 6 schools offering 180 places, then 180 students will go to school. If one of the schools is a religious school that doesn?t change the number of school places. Religious schools don?t regularly have unfilled places (quite the opposite).

[Bouncy]

Hi LondonMix,

The issue is that, given the current system, if any of those 6 schools is religious, a disproportionate number of religious families (who are equal to the non-religious according to every other factor accounted for in admissions) in the area local to them will get a place. A disproportionate number of non-religious families will be sent outside of that local area. There is a bias in the system towards religious families (/ those in the know prepared publicly to subscribe to a religion for more choice), in that sense...