It could be worse, we could be in Ireland

[ontheedge]

I marched in Ireland in 1983 re the 8th referendum which as far as Ican remember was about the mothers absolute right to life, I cannot believe that there is not more to this story than meets the eye. I refuse to believe that Ireland is such an ignorant nation as to allow a mother to die rather than termenate an unviable foetus

[StraferJack]

Onthedge

I don't believe Ireland as a nation is that ignorant. (Statement of the obvious maybe)

But I do encounter pockets of such ignorance both when I go back and when I meet some expats here

I remain convinced Ireland is on an upward trajectory. But would SOME small minded people hide behind the church and state in a case like this? I think so

And I hope I'm wrong. I hope there is more to this case. But those pockets remain... Like Japanese soldiers refusing to believe ww2 was over

I know I have come down heavily on the side of the reports to date. And I could be massively wrong. But the fact remains the church does have too strong a hold on the state in Ireland. And that has to continue to change

[ontheedge]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Onthedge

>

> I don't believe Ireland as a nation is that

> ignorant. (Statement of the obvious maybe)

>

> But I do encounter pockets of such ignorance both

> when I go back and when I meet some expats here

>

> I remain convinced Ireland is on an upward

> trajectory. But would SOME small minded people

> hide behind the church and state in a case like

> this? I think so

>

> And I hope I'm wrong. I hope there is more to this

> case. But those pockets remain... Like Japanese

> soldiers refusing to believe ww2 was over

>

> I know I have come down heavily on the side of the

> reports to date. And I could be massively wrong.

> But the fact remains the church does have too

> strong a hold on the state in Ireland. And that

> has to continue to change

Agree with everything you've said and very well put.

I just hope this story is a little less sensationalist then it sounds

[Audrey]

Agreed, ontheedge.

And also agreed straferjack that there will be people who will hide behind the church, but I do think things are changing, who would have expected enda to stand up to the pope!!??

I also think its important to make this difference, the deceased died because of the law, not religious beliefs. Yes this absolutely means the law needs changing. Whether this turns out to be plain old negligence (which dudleys posts allude to, and which can happen anywhere) that still stands true, and it's horrifically sad that someone has died.

[Gidget]

I read that this poor woman was approximately 18 weeks pregnant. If that was the case she would not have been able to have a D&C and would have had to go through labour, which appears to be what was happening. If her waters had already broken then it was very unlikely they would have regenerated, but that would was why the doctors would have been checking the baby's heartbeat and presumably performing scans.

[Saffron]

Dudley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 1) Saffron, if you are under the impression that

> Britain?s wide availability to abortion makes it a

> safer place to have a child than Ireland then you

> are wrong.

No, I'm under the impression that Britain's wide availability to abortion makes it a better place to have an abortion!

[Saffron]

Dudley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 2) Further, you seem to think I have missed the

> fact that Savita Halappanavar died (you type dead

> in capital letters). Believe me I have not. There

> is little else I have thought about since the

> story broke.

(It was for general emphasis within the context of the debate, not specifically about YOU.)

> I am wondering however, if your outrage was as

> strong when 5 women died in 18 months at Barking

> Havering and Redbridge Hospitals NHS Trust.

> http://maternitymatters.net/fifth-mother-dies-at-w

> orst-maternity-unit-in-the-country-as-sister-blast

> s-doctors-for-delaying-treatment/

> In fact this report from the Care Quality

> Commission makes for sobering reading:

> http://www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/do

> cuments/20111026_bhrut_investigation_report_final_

> 0.pdf

> In particular pages 19-20 make clear that staff

> are not just negligent but abusive.

>

Please don't assume emotions for me. I have never used the word "outrage" in this thread. (Geez, for someone who doesn't want people to leap to assumptions, you make a lot of assumptions and implications about other people.)

And, as I stated previously, negligence/mismanagement happens everywhere, and it is no less tragic by location. But this case in Ireland does not appear to be purely about negligence. It also appears to be about religious belief influencing politics in such a way that good medical judgement is overriden by poor legislation.

[reeko]

I am Irish and I am completley ashamed at what happened to that woman. It is not that she died that is the problem,even in the richest nations in the world with the best medical care women die in childbirth, it is why she died that sickens me. The decisions of the medical staff were influenced by religious dogma enshrined in Irish law. There may be many cases where medical staff use their discretion and D&Cs are carried out on medical grounds, but in this case that did not happen and a woman died needlessly. This is bcause Irish law is contaminated by religious beliefs. This must change.

[Gidget]

Reeko,

Do you know how many weeks pregnant the woman was and if she was eligible for a D&C? The Independent article does not say.

[StraferJack]

She was 17 weeks pregnant

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

[reeko]

Gidget you are putting up smoke screens that obscure the heart of the matter. The hospital may have been negligent, they could have better used their discretion, the lady may not have been eligible for a D&C, or even all three. What is not be in dispute is that by enshrining religious dogma in law, Ireland forces medics to include these considerations in their clinical decisions. This is wrong, and as long as laws such as these exist Ireland will remain open to critscism of being backward - and rightfully so. My mother , sister and my nieces will be marching in Dublin this weekend - I only wish I could be there to join them.

[Dudley]

When I was at University I remember learning about ?trial by ordeal?. This was how trials were conducted in medieval times to determine if someone was guilty of wrong doing. One of the methods was to throw the person into water. If they floated they were guilty because water was pure and it would expel anything impure. They were taken away and killed. If the person sank they were innocent, but probably drown. I remember thinking how barbaric, and not to mention stupid this was. The person died whether guilty or innocent. It must have been terrifying. After reading about another unfair court, the Court of Star Chamber and later Stalin?s show trials, I recall thinking how incredibly privileged I was to live in a time where methods of determining guilty or innocence were so sophisticated. Not only that, but everyone is now held equal before the law and entitled to a fair hearing.

But, when things like this happen I ponder that, perhaps, despite all our wonderful technology and Human Rights Charters we are not so sophisticated after all. People are so quick to judge.

If I, or indeed my husband, or later my children, were ever accused of wrongdoing or negligence in their professions, in the execution of their duty, I hope someone would stand up for me. I hope I wouldn?t just be thrown to the media and internet wolves.

Somebody would say STOP. This person is entitled to a fair hearing; to put her version of events to a tribunal and be heard. And this tribunal should be unbiased and impartial.

I think the nurses and doctors at University Hospital Galway ? people who have dedicated their lives to medicine and the care of others? are now damned whatever the outcome of the investigations and inquiries. So many people seem to have made up their minds. It matters not whether they sink or float.

[Gidget]

Excellent post Dudley.

[StraferJack]

Excellent post? Or a dubious claim for moral high ground?

If Ireland had different laws that woman would be alive today. Do we get it yet? Forget the hospital or medical staff involved. If my partner was to find herself in this situation I would be worried about her health.

If you were in that woman's situation and you asked for 3 consecutive days to have the soon to be dead foetus removed and nobody would, you would sing from a different hymn sheet

Cards on the table.. Are some people really interested in due process or are they really interested in preserving the current legislation in Ireland?

[Reading]

The laws may not be as relevant as you think. With my first pregnancy I was told my baby would die and a d&c (or more accurately ERPC) was scheduled for two weeks later. Despite knowing my baby was dying I had to wait, two agonising weeks for my appointment. Physically I had some discomfort, however psychologically I was devastated. I was in love with the baby from as soon as I found out I was pregnant. Two days before the appointment I suffered a miscarriage and delivered my unborn baby into the toilet. A scan revealed there was still some remnants left so I had to endure the ERPC anyway. In those two weeks I would wake up with a wet pillow every morning, I didn't even remember crying, but must have done so in my sleep. I couldn't think about it without breaking down.needless to say I didn't find comfort from others,as I couldn't speak about it. That was in this country, with abortion as an option to every woman. So, I don't think it can be said that this poor unfortunate man would be without wife and child if abortion at the moment it was requested had been an option. We don't know if the wait for a theatre, the scrubbing in time,and operation prep would have already been too late to save her in Ireland, or would have been too late to save her here too. Having had personal experience of being made to wait for my dead/dying baby to be removed in this country i believe there is a possibility this could have happened here too,and until the facts are established, it is pointless in feigning expertise of a situation we are all largely ignorant about. That is all.

[Otta]

In my experience an ERPC is done pretty quickly here.

[Gidget]

An ERPC is not done at 17 weeks.

[StraferJack]

Brave and harrowing first post Reading. Not many people would do that

But the circumstances aren't quite the same are they?

And, putting aside both cases, what are your views on Irish legislation re: abortion?

[Dudley]

Thank you for sharing your story Reading.

I am very sorry for your loss.

[Audrey]

But straferjack, not if the death was due to negligence. Do you get that yet?

What I'm trying to say is that we don't know. We weren't in the hospital ward as events were unfolding. Let the inquiry tell us the answere and then we can judge all we like.

I'm no defender of the Catholic Church and its [sometimes] (depends on your point of view) destructive influence over generations, but I am a defender of innocent til proven guilty.

[reeko]

Audrey the ins and outs of this particular case may not be known, but it is known that hundreds of women are forced to come to england every year for terminations. This includes women carrying babies with abnormalities, women who are not in a position to raise a child, women who are mentally ill and traumatised by being pregnant. Not so long ago a 14 year old girl who was raped by her uncle resulting in a pregnancy had to go to court to be allowed to travel to england for a termination.

This is as I have said because Irish law is contamined with religious doctrine. This is why hundreds of women are marching in Dublin this weekend. This is the issue at hand, not whether medics were negligent.

[Audrey]

Reeko - I don't disagree at all, I don't think many do. (Its disgusting what happens, especially in the cases of unborn babies who are incompatible with life. I'm wary of 'picking' a worst case, but in my opinion that is harrowing that someone doesn't have any choice in that situation).

I've already said that the law needs changing. We shouldn't ever be having the debate over whether a doctor couldn't do his/her job property because of ineptitude, or wouldn't do their job properly for fear of breaking some archaic law/moral belief.

But I do believe that intertwining the two does this woman a disservice, her case needs to be heard on its own virtue.

THEN the law needs to be changed, I think I've said that in a previous post. The law itself is what's backward, and the influence of the church on the state is completely destructive, agreed agreed agreed.

[StraferJack]

Audrey, I really do agree with you on so much here. But surely enough is known about this case for it to be a non-dry legal "let's wait and see". I'm not saying individuals or hospitals should or should be culpable. It's not a witch hint. I don't want innocent people implicated

But

Ireland has to change

&

And enough women today in Dublin seem to find it easy to imagine what it would be like in pain for three days,requesting intervention only to be refused for whatever grounds

http://twitter.com/universitytimes/status/269839344850857984/photo/1

This is potentially country changing? Sitting on a fence just seems odd

[StraferJack]

And as these people are marching, this is what they are up against

Posted around o connell st today

http://twitter.com/horganjonesjane/status/269186273774809088/photo/1

[Audrey]

Absolutely things have to change, and fair play to people for taking to the streets, enough has turned in to far too much already.

I just see the two as separate threads of the same argument. I'm probably not expressing myself very well; of course they are inextricably linked, but as I think Savita Halappanavar deserves to have her case heard separately.

I really really hope something comes about because of this, and your right, lets not wait and see at all, for the law to be changed.

Good luck, Ireland, it shouldn't be so difficult, but don't think its going to be easy.