The Libertarian mind

[StraferJack]

Anywhere we can look to on the planet for good examples Dave?

[????]

..well I think he's provided some reasonable ones there. You don't think people come together spontaneously as individuals and do good, ethichal, fun, even political things EVER Strafer? Really? Bizzare challenge - Tollepuddle martyrs, numerous civil rights movements, acid house parties, the EDF Curry Club.....I could go on, and on, and on....

[StraferJack]

Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear

The examples provided are things that people do together. In pretty much any society at some point. And all of them with plenty of non-individual power structures dictating what people could or couldn't do

I thought that some people were pushing for a world where their idea of libertarianism actually had taken root, and most obstacles to individual freedoms were removed an we could see how individuality was a beacon for the rest of us.

But I suspect such a society can't exist for the reasons H states

[LondonMix]

Images of Lord of the Flies...

[????]

...yeah that was fiction, Piggy et al whereas pol pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, you know they were real, them guys at the head of well, actual centralised states/bureacracies

[LondonMix]

Are those two extremes the only choices? I think even libertarians acknowledge something in between totalitarianism and anarchy is probably the best environment in which humans flourish...

[Huguenot]

Well, LondonMix, if you call yourself a Libertarian but only want a few bits of it, I think Libertarians would be right to question your badge. ;-)

I think it's fair to say that all the illustrations provided by DaveR work on social levels of less than 200 no?

Amateur dramatics, Tolpuddle Martyrs ( 6 ), WI.

These people didn't build roads, power stations or cross channel ferries - they just had a laugh (or got imprisoned) with their mates.

Protest, or Football fan bases, are not an organised force for creation, and don't count in this assessment. Any pillock can camp outside St. Paul's cathedral, but when it comes to buying sandwiches they get locked down in teepee debates about who is paying.

These are not sensible illustrations of collective action. There aren't any example of libertarianism resulting in anything but arse.

[LondonMix]

I never said I was a Libertarian! I'm not any kind of -ism or-ian :). I don't think liking the idea of rational thought as a way to understand complex issues is only the purview of one group! That would truly be a depressing thought...

[nashoi]

Humans are loss averse, meaning the emotional intensity of a loss is greater than that of a commensurate gain.

This has a huge impact on society/economics, for example it can explain some of the irrational consumption decisions we make and help explain the difference between the consumption decisions of the rich and poor.

Any politician from local to national trying to effect change, or reform an institution can expect those who perceive a potential loss to shout the loudest.

Both sides in a dispute will value the concessions they have made as greater than those of their opponents, as their opponents concessions are their gains. This can look bizarre to the outside world who are not looking at the situation with the same bias.

The list of situations it impacts is a lengthy one.

Loss aversion is then, apart from anything else, a conservative force on society. Those who are more loss averse will be more socially conservative as the potential downsides will loom larger. They will fail to see the same value in what they get in return for the pain of taxation or regulation and none of this has anything to do with morality.

[Huguenot]

Interesting idea, it seems inherently plausible - is this just your view or was this part of other research?

[nashoi]

Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky came up with Prospect Theoery in the late seventies, loss aversion was a key part of this. It replaced the utility theory of money as a way of modelling our decision making and won Kahneman the Noble Prize for Economics in 2002. So sorely tempted though I am to claim it was all my idea, I'm afraid not.

I came across the ideas reading Kahneman's book Thinking, Fast and Slow which I can't recommend highly enough.

[LondonMix]

Very interesting. Thanks for the book recommendation!