Are there any covens in Dulwich.

[maxxi]

legalbeagle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, if you don't mind, I'll respectfully

> disagree, both with the above definition of Wicca

> and the unnecessarily abusive references. And try

> to be kinder if you can manage it. The best thing

> about freedom of speech and religious practice is

> when it is exercised with thought and sensitivity.

> Insults aren't necessary and I doubt you'd be rude

> enough to use them face to face.

>

If asked I most certainly would say to any believer (Wiccan, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu etc.) - face to face - that I considered them an idiot. Freedom of speech and religious practice cannot co-exist as the deluded idiots who believe in the latter believe that their faith trumps all - including freedom of anything outside their religion.

The nightmare that is religion will only be truly laid to rest when everyone who recognizes it to be absurd, ridiculous, dangerous nonsense which only an idiot could believe in says so.

> Have a happy Christmas. (Which has its roots in

> Pagan festivals, as I'm sure you know.)

And my veggies have their roots in manure but I don't eat the latter.

[maxxi]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Same to you cousin!

>

> But who the hell tried to burn you?!?!

Maybe it was in a 'past life'...

[Atticus]

Easy target for those who love to scoff. Huguenot, how believable do you find 40 virgins or the resurrection? Would you dismiss Islam or Christianity so flippantly on a public forum? Doubt it.

[legalbeagle]

Such a shame, isn't it. And so typical. We can't have a sensible grown up discussion about anything these days without resorting to insults, name calling and rudeness.

Yes, some religions are exclusive. I find that difficult and don't like it. But a declaration that all religion is nonsense is also exclusive. I find that difficult and don't like it either.

No one speaking for Wiccans, or any other religious group in this thread, has asked for anything other than information, tolerance and restraint. We have received in turn rudeness, insults, a lack of respect and a label of "dangerous nightmare nonsense".

It's clear to me, on this thread at least, who the tolerant group is and who has a closed and angry mind. It's a sad thing to encounter in religious and secular life alike.

Happy Yule.

[Otta]

maxxi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Same to you cousin!

> >

> > But who the hell tried to burn you?!?!

>

>

> Maybe it was in a 'past life'...

You're out of order there. If he says some people tried to hurt him then some people tried to hurt him. If that was for his beliefs then I hope you'd condemn that, whether you respect those beliefs or not.

[legalbeagle]

Just NOT a joke you'd make to a Hindu, or a Jew, or or or.....

Shame on you.

[Isla]

Happy Yule everyone.

[maxxi]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> maxxi Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Otta Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Same to you cousin!

> > >

> > > But who the hell tried to burn you?!?!

> >

> >

> > Maybe it was in a 'past life'...

>

>

> You're out of order there. If he says some people

> tried to hurt him then some people tried to hurt

> him. If that was for his beliefs then I hope you'd

> condemn that, whether you respect those beliefs or

> not.

I agree that if he was truly attacked and people did try to burn him alive that that is a dreadful thing to happen for one's beliefs and my infantile 'dig' was well and truly out of order.

However I am not his cousin so did/do not have the "if that's what he says happened then that's what happened" take on it that you do. I am surprised that, as a family member, you had not heard of this before. I took what he was saying with a pinch of salt but am happy to be corrected and hope that Shaman took the matter to the police and had his tormentors arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned for attempted murder.

And it is not a matter of respect. I neither respect nor disrespect someone who believes the moon is made of cheese, I simply state my own belief that their belief in such a thing is idiotic. They are free to respond likewise.

What they prefer to do is cry out that I am intolerant for suggesting their beliefs are idiotic (which is not meant as an insult LB but is rather a profoundly held pov). I did not single out Wicca as "dangerous nightmare nonsense" but ALL religion but I see your point. You think that anyone asking for information on or expressing a belief in any religion should be left alone by those 'non-grown-up' types who find their beliefs absurd.

It is not intolerant to say religion is idiotic - it IS intolerant to demand/require/ask that those who feel that way should not say so.

[red devil]

I'm saying nothing...

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/sooty.jpg

[Huguenot]

Hi Atticus, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was saving special criticism for Wiccans from - I did say that I believed an omniscient God (judaeo-christian) was just as open to flak as spells and magick.

Filling one's house with Celtic runes is just as nutty as filling it with crucifixes. I'm still trying to work out which Christian ritual has equivalence with burying your pee in the front garden. There will be one.

Suicide bombers and vestal virgins have a special place in that pantheon of delusions - having made that noisome step from the ridiculous to the tragic.

[shaman]

All religion belief systems are flawed by an assumption that hey have some truth that others do not, the athesist is a belief system in its self since it beliefs that its paradiem is the right one.

In answer to Cous where it was in school days but didnt tell family, fortunately they were rubbish at making fires so didnt get very far by time teacher got there. The other stuff at various places i have lived in over years.

[El Pibe]

I'm bored of saying atheism is not a belief system, but it isn't.

It's not a recipe for life, it has no dogma or irrational rule based on collections of ancient hearsay.

Neither does it deny a god, it's simply the decision to live your life as you see fit free of the supernatural.

Atheism isn't about saying you're right, it's about saying you don't give a flying toss about all the competing supernatural belief systems claiming they're right.

I actually have sympathy for paganism more so than the monotheistic religions, after all the sun and the moon really do influence our world, the sun and the soil really are the givers of life.

Of course we've insulated ourselves from all of this so a rediscovery of paganism is the inevitable, understandable, angst ridden result of the supermarket, the light bulb and central heating.

To say modern paganism is based upon ancient practices is no more profound than saying Gladiator is based on ancient history. Actual detail is pretty scant and interpreted from mosaics, statues and archeological detritus, we really have no clue as to form and content. Much that is written down is the roman equivalent of the daily mail or mills and boon.

I mean take this Wikipedia snippet on Dianic Wicca "It was founded by Zsuzsanna Budapest in the United States in the 1970s and is notable for its focus on the worship of the Goddess (usually Artemis/Diana), and on feminism."

Do you reckon the content of their ritual say more about the actual dianic rites or about Californian new age spirituality as an aspect of rapid social change.....you decide.

[shaman]

I think I mentioned but perhaps wasn't picked up that most Pagans have a reverance for nature and any Gods/Goddeses are seen symbolically in these terms, Pagans generally dont believe in literal dieties but use them in the form of exploring Archetypes much in the style of Jungian theory

The Pagan path is not one of blind faith seeking help from some disembodied power but exploring the self through symbolism and ritual, these are seen simply tools for personal development and group bonding by the vast majority of practicing Pagans.

Spell etc are mostly seen to be historical versions of the modern concept of positve thinking or personal affirmation, yes there are superstious people involved in any religion but most Pagans are highly intelligent and don't believe in nonsense. I myself am not in the slightest superstitious and dont have lucky charms, read my horoscope or worry about walking under ladders (touch wood), have fun over the holidays x

[Huguenot]

I worry about walking under ladders, but I think that makes me completely rational!

All good points shaman, I can understand your approach.

I'm not sure you're talking on behalf of all pagans though ;-)

[shaman]

Hi Huguenot certainly dont speak for all thats why said the majority.

My opinions are just that mine, however they are based on over 35yrs of being involved in Paganism more then 20yrs teaching the subject both privately and academically.

There is estimated 200,000 Pagans in the UK over 50,000 declared at the last census, sadly many still have to hide their beliefs for fear of discrimnation at work or violence.

The Pagan community are known for their humour and free thought, personally I have work ritually with Christians Hindu's Buddhist's Gnostic's etc and Atheists.

I am glad to see some sensible discussion on this subject but sad that people often result to unpleasantness, this is the reason I rarely use the EDF anymore. It's become a place of backbiting and name calling where once it was a place of intelligent discussion often with humour.

Have Good break from the day to day whatever your beliefs or lack of them this week xxx

[brum]

I rarely visit The Lounge these days, but I've followed this thread with much interest. I think that Shaman makes a lot of good points and some posts by others sadly illustrate his view that the forum has changed, not for the better. Going back to the OP I hope your search is a fruitful one. Good luck!

[Huguenot]

Oh really - some people are so quick to take offence! Sitting around in teepees being all respectful for one another might tick the 'worthy' boxes, but the world would be a bloody tedious place.

Nobody's done any harm here, and certainly not enough to deserve some sonorously intoned portent about the the forum!

If Wiccan's can't take some gentle pisstaking then it doesn't bode well for their religion.

[legalbeagle]

At least we've agreed it's a religion now and not just an idiocy..... And don't get it wrong Hugeunot, lots of Pagans/Wiccans/Witches have a sense of humour. They've had to have. As, I'm sure, you must too. In fact I'm reliably informed by a mutual friend that you are actually quite nice. And since she's truly a lovely person I'm going to go with that judgement. I feel sure that side of your personality will burst through on this thread at any moment, along with all your seasonal cheer (even though you were just very rude to the extremely lovely Brum. *Tut*)

Happy Yule folks!

[Huguenot]

That was 'very rude' to Brum?? Ha ha, you're kidding right! How do you describe it when I'm genuinely rude?

Anyway, I wish you a fab Christmas also!

[Laddy Muck]

Yes Mr. H, leave darling brum alone, and the beautiful legal too, and the very sweet shaman, and the lovely Mr. Medic... or else I shall be over in quicker time than the melting of a snowball in the desert to lob you with out of date pork pies!

Merry Christmas!

[shaman]

My point about the forum wasn't directed at H but was a general point since he usually provide witty criticism, which I am completely for. However myself who was more a reader rather then a poster and many of my friends who were very active on EDF in the old days have left for the reasons mention. I am notorious piss taker among the new age & pagan scene (no bottles used). Happy Holydays All x

[El Pibe]

I have to say, I'm not really buying the jungian archetypes thing.

I mean I get the rituals, and the symbolism, the atavistic yearning, the accoutrements, I just don't buy that explanation.

If I was doing it for that I'd just feel it was so contrived and I'd feel silly.

If I was doing it all because its kind of sexy and empowering and that cute one from the round table turns up on Wednesdays then I reckon I might be up for it.

Go on, it's the sealed knot with black candles and broomsticks isn't it ;-)

[maxxi]

It used to be all trees around here.

*sigh*.

[shaman]

Yes it did used to be all trees round here, so a belief system that connects with concepts of nature is just right for Dulwich. Some people do focus on its the dialog between the masculine and feminine aspect in the representation of Goddess and God which can be quite sexy and empowering(yes I have known a few Pagans in Sealed Knot. Broomsticks are used for a number of reasons symbolically (also when outdoors in Dulwich Woods etc its useful sometimes to sweep the floor).

However I do know a number of leading teachers on Paganism whom are jungian psychologists or practice psycho~dynamic approaches.

Also perhaps more importantly it can be good fun, silly, playful, deeply meaningful, dramatic, moving and loving form of spirituality that is based simply in being one with yourself and all living things without dogma, but plenty of Trees.

[maxxi]

Apologies for the foggy metaphor Shaman but I was referring to the fondness some long-term forumites have, when they feel unsettled by parvenu posters, for relating how wonderful the forum used to be 'back then' and how sadly it has been traduced by uppity newcomers; and not to the once fecund woodland that would have covered the locale.