thatcher in hospital, doesnt look good

[????]

pathetic

[atila the gooner]

???? Wrote:

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> pathetic

In what way?

[????]

A Level Sociology Student politics

The unions used force and intimidation throughout the 1970s to continually bring the democratically elected governments of this country to their knees, the miners didn't even ballot their members for strike action in 1984, it was mass intimidation..

A fascist dicatorship invaded a country fully recognised by the UN and imposed its junta against the will of its poeple and Thatcher(sic) was brave enough to not accept this and ...

sorry the'plebs' in the 1980s didn't vote the way you'd liked....presumably that was The Sun's fault or something

[Marmora Man]

Thanks ???? you made the points I would have - but better.

[atila the gooner]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A Level Sociology Student politics

>

> The unions used force and intimidation throughout

> the 1970s to continually bring the democratically

> elected governments of this country to their

> knees, the miners didn't even ballot their members

> for strike action in 1984, it was mass

> intimidation..

>

> A fascist dicatorship invaded a country fully

> recognised by the UN and imposed its junta against

> the will of its poeple and Thatcher(sic) was brave

> enough to not accept this and ...

>

> sorry the'plebs' in the 1980s didn't vote the way

> you'd liked....presumably that was The Sun's fault

> or something

Jesus you are an angry Blue boy aren't you. Calm down before you hurt yourself. There are many contrys fully recognised by the UN that have had juntas of various persuasions "imposing their will against the will of the people" (did you borrow this from an A level text book?)and fu*k all has been done about it, including the glorious British government that you are full of praise for. Usually our government only gets involved if there is something in it for us, or follows the lead of our illustrious puppet masters the US.

[????]

ha ha...straight out of the Morning Star...

...it would probably amaze you to know that I've never voted conservative in my life but am capable about looking back and being analytical about this than, as I think Bob said earlier, sounding like a parody of Rick from the Young Ones..

fuck me, realpoitik is full off hypocracy and doubledealing but if you think that it was 'right' to leave the Falklands in the hands of a Dictstorship who had illegally invaded it then I guess it shows how strong your hatred of 'her' is...and you call me angry???

[atila the gooner]

Your analytical brain is obviously more akin to Harry Enfields Tory Boy, and giving yourself praise for being able to be analytical is laughable, as you will note that at no point did I say that I felt it was right to leave the Falklands in the hands of a dictatorship. With your wonderful analytical brain I thought you would be able to get your facts right. But I would also say that we choose to stick our oar in where it's not wanted, and don't condemn when we should, for example we choose not to condemn some of the outrageous acts of brutatlity and carnage committed by Israel against the Palestinians.

As for your earlier point about unions using force and intimidation, it doesn't excuse mounted police baton charging miners in South Yorkshire. This sort of behaviour maybe acceptable in dictatorships, which you quite rightly condemn, but we are supposed to live in country that prides itself on restraint, shame we forgot about that when the boys in blue were laying into the miners on horseback.

[Marmora Man]

I can't post a lengthy reply to ATG - why?

But maybe I can edit this. No - won't accept my critique of ATG. What's happening? Help.

[????]

Are you a geography lecturer at a Poly Attila...you certainly sound like one.

[SeanMacGabhann]

mm - did you have a word with something like ci-a-lis in it... say "special-ist"?

[Marmora Man]

ATG: I'll wade into this again.

Miners strike - the police action wasn't all deliberately heavy handed baton charges - much of it was in response to some much nastier provocation on the part of elements of the miners union. The cadre around Arthur Scargill believed in fomenting unrest and violence as, according to some revolutionary theories of the time, this worker's uprising would then develop into a workers paradise managed according to those principals set out in the USSR, China, Cuba and other successful (irony for those that may not recognise it) social-ist countries - where the few enlightened (friends of Scargill and co) would rule on behalf of the many.

Miners that wanted to work were intimidated, coach drivers that drove them to work were intimidated - the intimidation included concrete blocks dropped thru' windscreens, scaffolding poles thru' windows, petrol bombs and other unsavoury items being thrown at them and the police. Baton charging was and is a recognised way to defuse such situations by identifying the ringleaders, dashing in with short sharp force and "capturing" those fomenting the unrest.

Falklands: You're right, at the time of the Falklands War the Conservative Government was deeply unpopular - and was content to be so as it was certain it was doing what was necessary for Britain. It was not going to pander to media opinion, union pressure or old school consensus politicians (cf: Harold Macmillan). Contrast this sense of purpose with 10 years of Blair-ism and 9 months of Brown-ism. During this period of unpopularity it did what was necessary to recover the Falklands, something that much of the world, including the US, would have preferred it not to do. So Mrs Thatcher and her government stood up to the UN and the USA and said NO! By doing the right thing, in my view, the Government's actions chimed with the general population of Britain and was re-elected.

I would acknowledge that the timing of the post Falklands election was certainly set to catch the mood of the country but don't condemn a politician for being calculating and political - that's what they do. Remember also that the alternative was Michael Foot and the Labour party, which was at that time almost unelectable anyway.

[Michael Palaeologus]

It was nice to see that she is now out of hospital, at home, dunking digestives in her tea.

She was visited by daughter Carole, she will probably have a relapse now.

What happened to Arthur Scargill? Shouldnt he be dead by now? Much like the 20-years-out-of-date-psuedo-left-wing-middle-class-angst-ridden-pointless-class-war-based-load-of-old-wank-above.

I lived in the middle of the Miners strike, my family and those of friends were damaged by it. There was right and wrong on both sides. The experience has made me deeply cynical about politics left and right and thus deeply flippant, BUT relatively few people who spout about it were actually there; with good Policemen being forced to turn against their communities by the far-right wing government of the day who wanted to destroy Trades Unionism and sound mining communities being torn apart and manipulated by cynical far left elements who wanted to fight their class war on the streets of my home town. There are STILL families that are shunned by their communites as a result of that experience.

The tanks are rusting on the lawn, the old guard of both sides are fading away. That is as it should be.

[????]

well said MP - I can't believe people haven't grown out of it (it's like 45 years olds going raving)

[atila the gooner]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Are you a geography lecturer at a Poly

> Attila...you certainly sound like one.

Actually............no, and if you are going to use my name, do me the courtesy of spelling it correctly, there's a good Tory, I mean chap. It can't be too hard, it's attached to all my postings, all you have to do is copy it. By the way your Forum ID is in keeping with your beliefs, very 80's Tory, Loadsomoneyesque. Were you a commodity broker previously?

[????]

which part of "i've never voted tory" didn't you understand....stop thinking in stereotypes...you really are like Rick in The Young Ones aren't you?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Michale P - being serious for more than a sentence becomes you - more please!

I sense many posters who would be expected to post more on this subject have taken a back seat for some reason. Marmora Man has been the most eloquent and objective about the situation - would that more took the same route

Politically I suspect (read: know) I am on the opposite side of the fence to MM and quids but quids is correct to at least point out that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then and no-one else has really stepped up in the political arena to right her (depending on viewpoint) wrongs

The only thing I would specifically take issue with in MM's post is:

"Contrast this sense of purpose with 10 years of Blair-ism and 9 months of Brown-ism"

Now apart from sharing a deep-seated loathing of TB and what new labour have become, I would argue that the first term of Blair's office was relatively heady stuff. Bank of England independance, minimum wage and reintroducing free museum and gallery entry to pick 3 disparate achievements off the top of my head compared with the second half of Mrs T's reign, followed by Major which were pretty appalling if we are talking about "sense of purpose"

Whatever one's political convictions however, it's difficult to see anything more than tinkering at the edges from any newly elected governments given the current voting system, media coverage and general lack of joined-up-thinking between the voters and those they elect. It's too common for voters to be cynical about politicians but I suspect sitting on the other side of the fence you would see even more cynicism coming from voters about what they say they want and what they actually vote for

[Marmora Man]

Sean,

Thank you for the nice compliment - I suspect (read: know) that on many issues we may come at solutions from different perspectives but arrive at a similar end point. As you'll know I'm a light blue libertarian tinged with light red on occasions.

I agree entirely with your final paragraph - too much cynicism too little real action.

On a point of order - my earlier postings on this subject did acknowledge that Mrs T, like all long serving politicians, lost it toward the end and also stated that I was not an uncritical admirer of all her doings.

[atila the gooner]

???? Wrote:

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> which part of "i've never voted tory" didn't you

> understand....stop thinking in stereotypes...you

> really are like Rick in The Young Ones aren't you?

You really are a dipstick aren't you? Which part of I'm not a geography lecturer don't you understand. Are you sure you're not a commodity broker?

[mockney piers]

Come on chaps, stick to the point. Less of the naming calling, it's beginning to resemble a game of ping pong.

If you were referring to me SMG, I've avoided this thread for a couple of reasons. Mainly, it was an era I experienced, but was still too young to fully understand. My parents were of a socia-list/liberal disposition who had no love of Thatch, but one at least ended up voting Tory purely out of self interest, and presciently said that unless Labour courted his vote they would never get voted in.

Labour offered no viable alternative and like her or loathe her (she is very marmite isn't she) we were stuck with her. A mirror of the Blair years.

From a historical perspective, breaking the back of the Unions was necessary, after all the Unions should be about serving the interests of the workers, not the political interests of the unions (much like political parties seemed more interested in serving the interests of the parties than in the people as a whole). But I understand that those in the communities that immediately suffered are bitter, and the buy in to Geckoism (greed is good) has indeed contributed to a more selfish society that is spiritually poorer as it's grown richer. But we can't lay that all at her door, that was a wider trend globally than Thatcher, though she was at the forefront.

Falklands? I don't think it was done to win an election, and if she exploited the political capital she gained from the hugely risky enterprise, then as MM said, can you blame her? I think it was fought 1 part national pride in the face that we were no longer the world players we once were, and 2 parts there's a lot of oil under them thar islands. It'll be very costly to drill and impossible without Argentinian buy in, so watch this space for a increased cooperation leading to a phased handover over the next 30 years or so. (And do try to remember that we nicked it off them in the first place)

I'm not going to delight in the infirmity or death of Thatcher, but she's an old woman coming to the end of her time and I will not mourn her.

If it was Blair I suspect I might lean a little closer to Schadenfreude however.

[Michael Palaeologus]

;-)

[KalamityKel]

I met her once...

[Michael Palaeologus]

Thank you for your insight Kel

[snorky]

have a look around this forum and its most active topics - Hosuing prices / Chains ramping the rent in the LL / Kids being mugged for their mobiles etc etc etc

Would would have to be pretty niave / shortsighted not to be able to directly link these grievences and annoyances back to the thacher era and the society she spawned thought her actions and policies.

[citizenED]

I guess one reason that some people have remained quiet on this thread is out of a general sense of respect - you should not speak ill of the dead, and that evidently covers the very old too, so many anti-Thatcherite are understandably keeping their powder dry.

I lived in Coventry during the Thatcher years and boy, it was grim. The place was known as Giro City. The car industry was devastated and the heart was thus ripped out of a formerly proud place. A few McJobs were created.

What hurt was the sense of being kicked when you were down. Sad middle aged men with no future, twiddling their thumbs as they awandered aimlessly round the city in their shell suits. Relentless pontifications about how folk ought to get on their bike to find work even as they were squeezed to buggary by successive policies that felt like they were implimented to rub salt in the wounds. If it was bad in the Midlands I can't begin to think what it was like in places like Liverpool.

Maybe British Industry needed a root and branch transformation. Perhaps the Unions needed to be challenged. But hindsight is a wonderous thing and thaough it appears that it "worked" perhaps it didn't need to be done with quite so much vitriol. It was the "one-of-us or one-of-them" language that irked so much. And the quote that MM mentioned, that "no such thing as society" one, which is so patently inaccurate.

If Britain changed direction under Thatcher, European Politics were changing too, with its focus on human rights. I, for one, am glad that regulation from Europe on social and other issues is around to counter the excesses of the Thatcherite Free Market model.

I would argue that Blair did more for Britain than Thatcher though certainly Thatcher had a harder job as she had to change things and Blair merely had to steady things. Conversely, Thatcher had the easier War to fight, and came up smelling of political roses, whereas Blair had the impossible Iraq/War against Terror conflict and be-spattered by the fallout.

[KalamityKel]

Sorry I hadn't realised I had actually posted that comment :-S I had meant to continue my thought wiv something along the lines of yes many things had been put in place that some may not have agreed with, with the view of damage to the economy and such but also a lot of good things too... I don't have the brain to back up my argument in great detail so I'll stop now.

However, as a human being, and a notable person of history, her impending departure from this world should not be knocked or celebrated as a "thank god she's taken her time" view.