Zero tolerance of racism and hate crime in sport

[malumbu]

Whether you approve of the 'knee' or not it's right that sport promotes an end to hate crime in the UK

So it is sad that the Prime Minister and other politicians wade in ad criticise the sanctions by the ECB against Ollie Robinson for his earlier racist (and sexist?) tweets. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57398052

Although perhaps the PM is simply reflecting the views of much of the nation - excessive political correctness - in a nation that is predominantly white, western European, and Christian values (whatever the latter may mean). As perhaps judged by the booing of the knee by some English supporters.

Discuss!

[Mark]

They're separate.

Boris is not condoning taking the knee, he's said that the ECB response to the old tweets was inappropriate.

As far as I know, Ollie Robinson wasn't booing the knee at that football match.

I do know that he is remorseful of his old tweets, he apologised, saying he was "embarrassed" and "ashamed" and he has "the full support of the team".

By the way, saying "perhaps" a few times before your opinion (of what other people are thinking) does not give additional weight to a discussion point.

[malumbu]

Apologies for my poorly worded post. The Internet never forgets and Robinson has to face some sort of punishment. He should be a role model. I have no idea on what possessed him. Of course he should/will be allowed to move on - once his 'conviction' is spent. The John Terry incident was so poorly handled, Terry in my view isn't a racist but should have come clean, and made appropriate amends. I hope that the ECB handle this better than the FA did with Terry.

This is the poorest Prime Minister in my lifetime and I see him only getting involved to boost his brand. England is still a racist country, sorry I should have said a 'very conservative' country, and sport has a role in helping to change this.

Having said that there has been massive change for the better in my life time which makes me surprised of the booing of taking the knee. By all means argue that it is tokenistic as Wilf has said.

But pretty pointless putting up a thread if others don't have different opinions - which we can debate and hopefully learn off each other.

I came back from New Zealand in the 90s and was surprised about the racist views I heard from some white kiwis about the Maori. A mate at work said you'd get just as many racist views in rural areas about people of colour. That's just an anecdote about a situation where I thought that I was right and someone gave a different opinion that I respect and helped shape my thinking.

[Mark]

Sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make. Could you summarise?

[KalamityKel]

Sweeping statements and over generalisations - you quite offensively saying "England is still a racist country" - tend to hide weak points.

Yes, please summarise what you are trying to debate about.

[TheCat]

RE - the booing of the 'taking the knee'

I think a large part of the disagreement over the taking the knee surrounds what different people believe it represents....supporters would say that taking the knee is a simple act of solidarity against racisms in all its forms, and therefore anyone booing it is probably racist. On the flip side, many of those that object to taking the knee dont feel its a ubiquitous stand against racism, but a gesture which is heavily entwined with the BLM organisation specifically, and therefore not something they may wish to support.

Look at the Millwall supporters late last year who cheered and applauded the carrying of a banner against racism, only days after booing 'taking the knee' https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55239475.amp

[JohnL]

England Cricketers should undergo some kind of vetting (as many employees do)

The issue is not that he tweeted inappropriate stuff as a youth - but whether he admits to it when asked and admits it isn't something he'd do now.

If you fail this process then some kind of program might be available and by the time the press hear about it it's already done and dusted - no public relations issue.

[pk]

I read a great piece on the booing of kneeling

https://www.football365.com/news/marxism-booing-knee-england-racism-john-nicholson

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

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> I read a great piece on the booing of kneeling

>

> https://www.football365.com/news/marxism-booing-kn

> ee-england-racism-john-nicholson

Me too....

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my-advice-to-gareth-southgate

[Sephiroth]

isn't Rod Liddle a less-than-reliable narrator on matters "racist"?

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> isn't Rod Liddle a less-than-reliable narrator on

> matters "racist"?

I don't think Jonny Nicholson is winning any role model of the year awards either....

I just thought I'd respond to one ludicrously one sided, smug, condescending article with another....

[Sephiroth]

I'll be honest - I've never heard of Nicholson. What's the skinny?

[malumbu]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to

> make. Could you summarise?

Oh you are trolling me. Sorry bit slow on the uptake. Thanks to the others for joining in the debate rather than targeting me.

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I read a great piece on the booing of kneeling

> >

> >

> https://www.football365.com/news/marxism-booing-kn

>

> > ee-england-racism-john-nicholson

>

> Me too....

>

> https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my-advice-to-g

> areth-southgate

It?d be better if you posted a link people didn?t have to pay to follow

[Mark]

Nope, not trolling you at all, just trying to understand the point you're trying to make. If you raise an opinion openly you must expect it to be questioned. Good on you for raising it, I'm just trying to clarify it.

[malumbu]

Fair enough!

The Last Leg captured things quite nicely on Friday (Adam Hills) -

"England and Sussex bowler Ollie Robinson has been suspended from all international cricket pending the outcome of a disciplinary investigation following historic tweets he posted in 2012 and 2013" (ECB statement)

Therefore it is not appropriate for politicians to comment until we have the outcome of this.

My views are of course very much skewed towards inappropriate political intervention - this also includes taking the knee which is 'seen' to have been 'infiltrated' by Marxists, which 'supposedly' explains the booing.

I was trying to demonstrate that my views may be different to middle England.

On bigger issues, vetting of international sports people seems to be a no brainer. I've received security clearance in the last ten years and this included checking my social media status. You could argue that is is interventionists, but the internet is in the public domain and never forgets. So I formally apologise to anyone on the forum that I have dissed.

On some aspects of hate crime sport doesn't help itself as there are many in the closet. It's sad that in this day and age I should be saying this, as this is a decision by the individual, but it sport was like some other professions where sexuality/gender fluidity etc is not an issue then this would help things to progress.

Although I am sure that some in the creative industries will still get hate mail/social media comment.

Of course race is something generally difficult to hide, and there are zillions of role models, making it even more puzzling that you get abuse.

Love the tweet by one footy club responding to a lifetime fan who asked for his season ticket to be cancelled due to the support of an anti-racist initiative. The club Tweeted back that he would not be missed. https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11698/11999301/west-brom-hit-back-at-season-ticket-holder-who-called-anti-racism-message-patheticsupporter

Edited to correct minor typo

[TheCat]

"My views are of course very much skewed towards inappropriate political intervention - this also includes taking the knee which is 'seen' to have been 'infiltrated' by Marxists, which 'supposedly' explains the booing"

I genuinely dont understand the need for the inverted commas Mal...and more broadly, I genuinely dont understand the unwillingness of many 'progressives' (see what I did there:))....to accept on face value that most people booing probably arent trying hide their closet racism, but actually do have a problem with BLM (the organisation) and view the taking the knee as tacit support for that specific organisation....

If one believes that most people are against racism (I do), then gaining popular support against racism should not be a difficult sell...so my question to activists is why continue to bang your head against a wall insisting on using a gesture that clearly divides, when most people probably already agree with your overarching goals.....

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> I genuinely dont understand the need for the

> inverted commas Mal...and more broadly, I

> genuinely dont understand the unwillingness of

> many 'progressives' (see what I did there:))....to

> accept on face value that most people booing

> probably arent trying hide their closet racism,

> but actually do have a problem with BLM (the

> organisation) and view the taking the knee as

> tacit support for that specific organisation....

>

as self appointed defender of the boo boys, perhaps you can explain why the Croatian national anthem was booed yesterday?

[TheCat]

some people are just d!ckheads.

[pk]

So you think it?s different people booing different things for different reasons? And that those booing moments later are shrewd and informed political intellects rather than xenophobic or racist dickheads?

How do you work that out?

[Sephiroth]

"If one believes that most people are against racism (I do), then gaining popular support against racism should not be a difficult sell."

you would think, wouldn't you. The English players and manager and swathes of the country are sold on it - but som English national fans, Rod Liddle and Millwall supporters can see the marxist agenda behind it

I mean it IS hard to know who to believe on this one, isn't it?

[TheCat]

pk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So you think it?s different people booing

> different things for different reasons? And that

> those booing moments later are shrewd and informed

> political intellects rather than xenophobic or

> racist dickheads?

>

> How do you work that out?

This isnt a black and white issue (no pun intended). You're trying to pigeonhole my broad comments on booing in general to suggest im specifically talking about one set of individuals at one football match. Sure...some of the people who have booed at one or many of the football matches where booing took place probably have racist views....but there are a great many people out there who I would guess that wouldnt be considered as racist who dont like taking the knee. How do you explain the Millwall fans 'turnaround' as discussed above....were the racists just all busy with something else at the time of the second match?

Seph, I think this whole phrasing of the 'marxist' nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit of a strawman made to mock non-political people who dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of course most people out there dont consider the 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a academic/political science level....but I expect most people hear terms like 'defund the police' etc and decide they dont like the sound of this mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to think, even if you personally dont agree with it.

Take for example the phrasing that PK has use above as an exmaple of this strawman as I see it....so people are either 'shrewd political intellects' or 'racist d!ckheads'?....that's just unnecessarily binary...the overwhelming majority of people will be neither of those two things.

I think for many progressive types, its worth asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, rather than simply insisting they must like it, and concluding that if they dont then they must just be racist. That's just far too easy.

[Sephiroth]

"I think for many progressive types, its worth asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, "

I think the balance of responsibility is to view the events of the last year, the rise of BLM, the support of and for black players and ask those people booing WHY they are booing? What is it about BLM that irks them so? What is it about taking a knee versus linking arms that annoys them to the extent they boo the players they ostensibly support

[pk]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pk Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So you think it?s different people booing

> > different things for different reasons? And

> that

> > those booing moments later are shrewd and

> informed

> > political intellects rather than xenophobic or

> > racist dickheads?

> >

> > How do you work that out?

>

>

> This isnt a black and white issue (no pun

> intended). You're trying to pigeonhole my broad

> comments on booing in general to suggest im

> specifically talking about one set of individuals

> at one football match. Sure...some of the people

> who have booed at one or many of the football

> matches where booing took place probably have

> racist views....but there are a great many people

> out there who I would guess that wouldnt be

> considered as racist who dont like taking the

> knee. How do you explain the Millwall fans

> 'turnaround' as discussed above....were the

> racists just all busy with something else at the

> time of the second match?

>

> Seph, I think this whole phrasing of the 'marxist'

> nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit of

> a strawman made to mock non-political people who

> dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of

> course most people out there dont consider the

> 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a

> academic/political science level....but I expect

> most people hear terms like 'defund the police'

> etc and decide they dont like the sound of this

> mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to think,

> even if you personally dont agree with it.

>

> Take for example the phrasing that PK has use

> above as an exmaple of this strawman as I see

> it....so people are either 'shrewd political

> intellects' or 'racist d!ckheads'?....that's just

> unnecessarily binary...the overwhelming majority

> of people will be neither of those two things.

>

> I think for many progressive types, its worth

> asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, rather

> than simply insisting they must like it, and

> concluding that if they dont then they must just

> be racist. That's just far too easy.

what a hypocrite you are

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I think for many progressive types, its worth

> asking yourself 'why' people dont like BLM, "

>

> I think the balance of responsibility is to view

> the events of the last year, the rise of BLM, the

> support of and for black players and ask those

> people booing WHY they are booing? What is it

> about BLM that irks them so? What is it about

> taking a knee versus linking arms that annoys them

> to the extent they boo the players they ostensibly

> support

Yeah, I understand that perspective. It can seem a little arbitrary/pointless I guess as to what is acceptable and what is not, all in pursuit of broadly similar aims.

IM not a booer...(im not even a football fan:))....im just trying to keep an open mind, as I genuinely cant believe that such large portions of the population are racist. Case closed.

SO I do suspect its a wider problem with BLM...and more broadly a problem with critical race theory (even if most people dont know that its called that) that they associate with BLM. And that is probably a much wider discussion than just around booing at football games. I spoken on this forum before about what I feel is the divisive nature of CRT/Anti-racism movement (not worth digging that up again here) - and I would sense that many people who are oestebibly 'against racsism' probably feel similarly to myself. I could be wrong, but thats my gut feeling.