Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[Pickle]

While I understand where you are coming from, I would never ban such stories or tv programmes from the house. We read all sorts of books, sometimes princess stories are chosen, other days it's pirates. My nearly 5 year old girl has two Barbie dolls which sit in a drawer never being played with, she's not interested. Similarly dolls in general in our house are untouched by her, but often used in games by my 6 year old boy.

World book day came along and my daughter opted to go as a princess, this doesn't bother me at all - she's 4, she wants to dress up and wear a twirly dress, it doesn't go any deeper than that.

Learning about gender stereotypes forms part of the growing up process doesn't it? Let them be exposed to all aspects of life as kids, and, if you do your job as a parent well, rest in the knowledge that they will make sensible choices as they grow up.

[Chief Jeff]

Interesting thread! I'd never really thought about the Cinderella story in this light before.

I think, though, that Cinderella isn't entirely passive and without backbone - does she not display some self-confidence and courage in order to go through with the fairy godmother's plan and go to the ball? And, assuming that she has no other family to go to, maybe her subservience is a sign of intelligence - perhaps it's the best way, until she's old enough to leave home, of dealing with the stepsisters' bullying.

[Claire29]

Wow I'm so glad I've got 3 boys and don't have these issues! Had never really thought about the deep meanings of the stories as I tend to think they are children for such a short time, let them enjoy it! My boys love Horrid Henry (books).....not sure if he's a great role model!

[WorkingMummy]

Chief Jeff Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting thread! I'd never really thought about

> the Cinderella story in this light before.

>

> I think, though, that Cinderella isn't entirely

> passive and without backbone - does she not

> display some self-confidence and courage in order

> to go through with the fairy godmother's plan and

> go to the ball? And, assuming that she has no

> other family to go to, maybe her subservience is a

> sign of intelligence - perhaps it's the best way,

> until she's old enough to leave home, of dealing

> with the stepsisters' bullying.

I think that what Etta166 and Pickle are saying about the best approach to this, is probably right, on reflection.

But no, can't see Cinderella's backbone. She is not in physical chains, and she doesn't even try to resist. Most narratives (inc the Disney film) are explicit that this is an expression of her virtue. This is a wicked thing to teach kids.

A courageous thing to do would be to storm the ball in rags and demand justice for domestic slaves. (Or even, just say no to her step-mother.) To go to a ball protected by the disguise of a supernatural spell (so that even your family cannot recognise you) and run away before risking discovery - not so brave.

In the end, Cinderella's "salvation" is to swap the mastery of her step-mother for the mastery of the prince. Which may be more pleasant (we are not told what would happen if she ever resisted him). But he is still another master: certainly she is not consulted as to her fate, like an equal.

[Chief Jeff]

Isn't it a lesson to children that you should always do what your parents tell you, whether you like it or not? That's a good lesson!

But, anyway, what would happen if she did try to resist? Given that this is a story set in 'the olden days', what options would she have if she refused to submit and left the house?

[WorkingMummy]

You must obey the adults around you, no matter what they say, and ignore your own instincts, and if you do that, you will be worthy, is PRECISELY what makes child abusers so powerful.

I'm not saying people who read Cinderella to their kids are abusing them. (I read it to mine last night.) I'm just saying, submission = virtue is not a good message, but a bad one. It's a dark tale.

This is why I try (it's hard) to celebrate my kids' willfullness. Pain in the arse a lot of the time. But no bad thing in the long run.

[verds]

I'm with you on this, Working Mummy.

I dressed my two girls in blue/black/anything but pink - so much so that the baby still gets referred to as 'He'.

And when my eldest turned 3, she decided to wear nothing but pink and has asked me many times why I don't wear any 'princess dresses'. She loves the new Disney princess, Sofia the First, and that touches on another pet hate of mine: royalty!

I agree that sexism starts young and it makes me furious, but I learned my feminist ways from my mum more than from culture so I do have some hope for them.

But now she wants a Barbie and that opens up a whole can of worms for me.

[ClaireClaire]

Hello,

Yes I agree: the problem is that those types of messages come from a whole variety of sources, not just fairy tales. I think what's important is to sort of have a controlled exposure to these messages, in an environment where you can discuss them together.

Banning things (toys/games/books/costumes) hasn't been that helpful in my house. I sensed that my daughter was a bit hurt if I made any negative comments about the dolls she played with, or Disney princess costumes she liked, or whatever it was, even if I tried to do so in a constructive way. I think she took it as me trying to over-ride her choices and impose my own preferences on her playtime. Basically, she took it as a criticism of her personally, rather than a criticism of the toy/costume/whatever. So I backed off from that one, and took the strategy of supporting her choices, whether I agreed with them or not. I just made very general positive comments like, "That looks like fun!" while maintaining a bit of distance from it. The ultimate aim is to bolster her assertiveness and self-confidence, and I think my current strategy does that more effectively than my previous attempt (i.e. simply banning barbie dolls etc) did. [Obviously this is just my experience, and other parents might find a different strategy works better for them.]

Sorry, I do have a lot more to say about all this but I am supposed to be working! Will drop back in when I have some time to add more.

Claire

[WorkingMummy]

Chief Jeff Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't it a lesson to children that you should

> always do what your parents tell you, whether you

> like it or not? That's a good lesson!

>

> But, anyway, what would happen if she did try to

> resist? Given that this is a story set in 'the

> olden days', what options would she have if she

> refused to submit and left the house?

Sorry, I replied to the first para immediately after your post, Chief Jeff.

As to what would happen if she ran away, we don't know. In fact, we don't know if she would even need to - because, like a good little girl, she does zero, nothing, short of running away, as a first measure.

But if she ran away (possible, being old enough to marry) she'd probably be ok. She was a proven good worker at least. But whatever, she would be free.

The trade between staying in a place of fear in order to buy yourself security (and in that, sweetly loving and obeying someone you fear) is the essence of sado-masochism.

Not good.

Great piece of propaganda though, to feed to the impoverished, germanic girls, whose free labour was an economic necessity, I've no doubt. Hope to teach my daughters to see it like that (one day).

[WorkingMummy]

ClaireClaire Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hello,

>

> ....

>

> Sorry, I do have a lot more to say about all this

> but I am supposed to be working! Will drop back in

> when I have some time to add more.

>

Looking forward to reading what you have to say Claire.

WM

[etta166]

I genuinely do think that the critique approach worked for me and my sister (and my brothers). You can't prevent exposure to stories with dubious morals in the wider world of school, playground etc. I know that our kids are young for this, but trying to get them to think about a story rather than just accept it point blank will, I hope, be good for them in the long run.

As for the princess dresses, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. My son has grown out of his brief phase of liking them and my daughter hasn't expressed any interest yet. I'll probably be here asking for advice if/when she does!

@WorkingMummy: I'm also trying to celebrate my children's determination and strong wills. But, boy, is it hard sometimes :)

[TE44]

I understand what you're saying WM,

And without going off topic, there are many things in oue enviroment,

Which encourage people towards herd mentality from an early age,

I have a problem with science, for many reasons,,

And if I'm honest, I think science haas encouraged people to hand over

responsibility for there health, science has now become a controlling

power where money and control have taken over, constricting some amazing scientific

people who would like freedom to study to give people answers

to people suffering, by the mistakes made by sscience.

Luckily like books,we still have a choice, and although regulations regarding herbs

are being restricted, nature still gives us our plants, which have been used for centurys.

I realise there has also been amazing work done, and have admiration for

individuals who care for ill and dying people. And know many people

who would not be living without science.

For me personally

I cannot connect this sysstem with healing.

Sorry if this may seem off topic but I do believe

childdhood events have aan effect on how mucch

you question your enviroment. And wanted to explain

WM, although I've prob went on ddifferent tangents. On phone and hard to type.

[Pickle]

At the risk of sounding callous, I can't help thinking there is an awful lot of over thinking going on here.

They are kids. Kids will play with whatever takes their fancy in that particular 5 minutes of their day. When my son chooses to play with a doll he is not making a conscious decision to break down male gender stereotypes, when my daughter plays with trucks/mud/bugs she's not sticking two fingers up at the world and celebrating her feminist beliefs.

As a parent, I'm confident that reading Cinderella to my daughter is not going to result in her getting into a relationship when she's older where she is controlled and does what she's told at all times.

Let them be children.

[theasidonio]

Pickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At the risk of sounding callous, I can't help

> thinking there is an awful lot of over thinking

> going on here.

>

> They are kids. Kids will play with whatever takes

> their fancy in that particular 5 minutes of their

> day. When my son chooses to play with a doll he

> is not making a conscious decision to break down

> male gender stereotypes, when my daughter plays

> with trucks/mud/bugs she's not sticking two

> fingers up at the world and celebrating her

> feminist beliefs.

>

> As a parent, I'm confident that reading Cinderella

> to my daughter is not going to result in her

> getting into a relationship when she's older where

> she is controlled and does what she's told at all

> times.

>

> Let them be children.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[radhabee]

Love this thread. I too don't like the 'pinkification' or 'princessification' (not sure those are words but ykwim) of girls. It's just so reductive and unhelpful. We tend not to buy princess / fairy type books, but have got a few sticker dress up books. Where, btw, all the girls are doing is having a picnic / party / dressing up! Grrrr.

Re Cinderella, it absolutely sends out the uncomfortable messages. However I have more of a problem with the fact that most protagonists in children's books are male. Even when the story is about four animals. It sends out the overwhelming message that girls just aren't that important. And of course when there is a girl she's often doing something "girly". When we read books to my 3 year old and there's a boy protagonist we change the gender, so in our house A Dark and Stormy Night is about a brave girl called Antonia (rather than Antonio as written). Easier with older books where boys look like girls in the illustrations - eg Christopher Robin!

If anyone's on twitter, there's a great project called @everydaysexism and there are lots of examples of very young girls (as reported by their mothers/sisters etc) attributing negative stereotypes - passive, incapable - to themselves as girls.

[Kate08]

Claire29 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow I'm so glad I've got 3 boys and don't have

> these issues! Had never really thought about the

> deep meanings of the stories as I tend to think

> they are children for such a short time, let them

> enjoy it! My boys love Horrid Henry

> (books).....not sure if he's a great role model!

Is the impression boys get about the role of women not also important to how we as a society treat women and how they will continue to be treated in the future.

[WorkingMummy]

verds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm with you on this, Working Mummy.

>

> ... I learned my feminist ways from my

> mum more than from culture so I do have some hope

> for them.

>

> But now she wants a Barbie and that opens up a

> whole can of worms for me.

I would not buy a Barbie. But my mother-in-law dished a couple out to my girls, against our wishes. (Grr)

Picking up on what you say about learning from your mother's example, I did hear my (heathily wilful!) 2 year old saying to her Barbie in bed one night last week (I was trying to get her to sleep): "No Barbie, you can't wear those pink shoes because you are going to court. You have to wear black in court."

I have never, in fact, spoken against pink (and I wear pink). My 2yo had just picked up the "going to court" thing from seeing me go off to work (I'm a lawyer).

I don't think this makes the Barbie harmless. But perhaps supports what you and others are saying about the best ways to try to meet the Barbie challenge????

[Pickle]

Taking it one step further, I take it there are a number of working mums posting on this thread. Can I assume you don't wear makeup or high heeled shoes to work?

[theasidonio]

Apart from Aladdin, none of the Disney 'Princes' have much of a personality.

[midivydale]

What an interesting thread. I have spent alot of time thinking about this when I was at home on maternity leave. In Sweden, the gender stereotyping debate has gone really really far. Too far in my opinion and I do agree with Pickle that they are children.

I share the princess concern and during my pregnancy decided that if I had a daughter I wouldnt do the "pink and fairy" thing. But I had a boy and have relished in all things blue and "boyish". Double standars? Most definately and I have now added another thing to my endless "Am I a good enough mummy" list.

Sorry for rambling, writing this at work...but I do share this concern with Cinderalla and perhaps an idea could be to introduce other literature as well that you choose.

Have you read Pippi Longstocking to her? Not sure if those books are around anymore but Pippi is a fellow Swede who lives on her own as her mummy is in heaven and her daddy is a pirate on the seven seas. She is independent, kind, generous and a very very loyal friend.

Also - she is strong enough to carry a horse:

By the way working mummy - I am back at work now and everything that you predicted in one of your posts in my thread has come true...You clearly know your stuff

[WorkingMummy]

Pickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At the risk of sounding callous, I can't help

> thinking there is an awful lot of over thinking

> going on here.

>

> They are kids. Kids will play with whatever takes

> their fancy in that particular 5 minutes of their

> day. When my son chooses to play with a doll he

> is not making a conscious decision to break down

> male gender stereotypes, when my daughter plays

> with trucks/mud/bugs she's not sticking two

> fingers up at the world and celebrating her

> feminist beliefs.

>

> As a parent, I'm confident that reading Cinderella

> to my daughter is not going to result in her

> getting into a relationship when she's older where

> she is controlled and does what she's told at all

> times.

>

> Let them be children.

Pickle, like I say, I think you are right in your approach: don't censor/ban, but allow exposure and discuss instead. I started this thread unsure, but you and others have convinced me.

But I'm going to defend myself against the charge of over thinking. Fairy tales, like most mythology, self-present as morality tales. And I think it's important to consider the morality which they preach, in order to decide how to approach that message with your kids. We are here as parents to guide. And these stories are (by design) powerful.

Love to know from you and others how to talk to children about this without getting dogmatic. I guess, just start a conversation? Ask the questions? Trust them to get to the right answers for themselves in time?

[Saffron]

Pickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Taking it one step further, I take it there are a

> number of working mums posting on this thread.

> Can I assume you don't wear makeup or high heeled

> shoes to work?

:)

[WorkingMummy]

midivydale Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I share this concern....

> Have you read Pippi Longstocking to her? Pippi is

> a fellow Swede who lives on her own as her mummy

> is in heaven and her daddy is a pirate on the

> seven seas. She is independent, kind, generous and

> a very very loyal friend.

> Also - she is strong enough to carry a horse:)

>

>

> By the way working mummy - I am back at work now

> and everything that you predicted in one of your

> posts in my thread has come true...You clearly

> know your stuff

So happy for you!!!

I will look at those books, thank you!

[etta166]

Pickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Taking it one step further, I take it there are a

> number of working mums posting on this thread.

> Can I assume you don't wear makeup or high heeled

> shoes to work?

Generally I don't. I hate wearing makeup but sometimes I wear heels because I like the shoes and not to conform to any social expectation. I know many people who do wear makeup because they like the way it makes them look and feel, so each to their own.

Men also face the same pressures on appearance at work, though, with strict conventions on suit colour, shoe colour and tie wearing. In a way, in many ofice-based professions women are much more at liberty to dress as they please than men are.

[TE44]

I agree Pickle, its one thing however much you want to look at

things but children need to be kids and learn things for

Themselves. I was always amazed at how differently they interpreted

books and situations with each other.