Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[midivydale]

Makeup & Heels on, hope that doesnt affect my credibility :)

[WorkingMummy]

Pickle Wrote:

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> Taking it one step further, I take it there are a

> number of working mums posting on this thread.

> Can I assume you don't wear makeup or high heeled

> shoes to work?

Don't wear high heels (reminds me of Chinese foot binding, yes, but more to the point, i stand all day in court, and they f'in kill.) Wear tinted moisturiser, mascara and a little lipstick.

I read the Beauty Myth. Wolf makes a good case. But seriously, my make up takes less time than my husband takes to shave.

Make up does not disqualify me from critiquing the exposure of young girls to masochistic "heroines" or morality tales that preach submission = virtue.

:-)

[Pickle]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> Love to know from you and others how to talk to

> children about this without getting dogmatic. I

> guess, just start a conversation? Ask the

> questions? Trust them to get to the right answers

> for themselves in time?

To be quite honest, I wouldn't specifically talk to them about it. I believe the more you dwell on something with small children, the more likely they are to over think it. I look at stories through children's eyes, not at how they may have an impact on their lives in 30 years time.

I grew up in a very traditional NZ family - Dad worked, Mum stayed at home, we read all the fairy tales and watched Disney. No lasting emotional damage ;)

My focus is on making sure my kids are well educated and happy with a secure home life. It is this that will shape them into mature, responsible, functioning members of society, not whether they've watched Cinderella.

[WorkingMummy]

midivydale Wrote:

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> Makeup & Heels on, hope that doesnt affect my

> credibility :)

It does not! I remember what environment you work in, mivydale. High heels and lipstick "codes" in the city as "I am together" - much like a man's expensive suit. Smart choice, I'd say.

This hardly makes you like sell-out Cinderella!!

[Otta]

Pickle I totally agree with your post, but I'm still not ever buying a Barbie doll.

What worries me is when my daughter says "cars are for boys, and somethingorother is for girls". This is a very recent thing, and something sghe's clearly picked up. I just don't want that sort of thing getting ingrained in her mind, so we say "toys are for everybody", and hope she believes us.

[RenF]

Finding this very interesting, and whilst I agree with applying some caution with regards to role models etc for our children, I agree with Pickle that there is a danger of over thinking this. I recall watching a documentary some years ago about a mother who had made a conscious decision that her sons were not going to have a stereotypical male upbringing.

One key thing she did was not to allow her sons to have toy guns, soldiers, other 'fighty' type toys. The result? The camera panned in on her watching despairingly from the kitchen window as her sons picked up sticks in the garden and shouted "bang bang"!

So, this isn't quite the same thing obviously, but I think there's some truth in the idea that what you deny your child most they will crave most. Perhaps ignore the princessy phase, continue focusing on other more positive games, stories and ideas and they'll hopefully choose these things for themselves eventually?

Something which I have picked up on here and would hope to apply with my daughter when she's older (only 15 months at the mo) is to question the stories we're presented with, have a discussion about what Cinderella (or other 'heroine') could/should have done. The best we can hope for surely is for our girls to be questioning?

[Pickle]

... and please do realise I'm a little tongue in cheek with my heels and makeup comment. I'm a stay at home Mum who wears heels (well, wedges) and makeup to do the school run. I have standards ;-)

[midivydale]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> midivydale Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Makeup & Heels on, hope that doesnt affect my

> > credibility :)

>

>

> It does not! I remember what environment you work

> in, mivydale. High heels and lipstick "codes" in

> the city as "I am together" - much like a man's

> expensive suit. Smart choice, I'd say.

>

> This hardly makes you like sell-out Cinderella.

That made me laugh out loud (which was much needed). It is a code, and it does go someway to fake a togetherness and mask the sleepdeprived, guiltridden, emotional, tummy wobbling version of myself.

Fake it til you make it, right?

x

[WorkingMummy]

I guess it's just a different approach, Pickle.

I too grew up in a very traditional home. I'm not knocking that.

I simply think, it's important to consider these things and valuable to teach children to question everything, especially this topic where (judging by turn out at world book day locally to us) the prevailing trend is so strong. Personally, I wouldn't leave a junk morality tale (like Cinderella) to pass without some comment/question from me.

It's not as if the battle for full female emancipation is over out there in the big wide world. And speaking from my own experience, the explicit (in my case, religious) message I received as a child that submission = virtue certainly made it more difficult for me to navigate relationships for a good decade of my early adult life.

Not at all saying that's what you are doing. Just saying. This stuff matters.

[WorkingMummy]

Pickle Wrote:

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> ... and please do realise I'm a little tongue in

> cheek with my heels and makeup comment. I'm a

> stay at home Mum who wears heels (well, wedges)

> and makeup to do the school run. I have standards

> ;-)

:-)

[TE44]

Pickle,

I grew up mostly hearing stories at school as my mother

did not have the time to read to us due to caring for my father,

Who was extremely ill. The stories my mum told were spontanous

As were my fathers, which he always told, as a true story, ha ha.

I now have the delight of reading to my grandchild now,

And re live again the joy of a childs imagination.

[WorkingMummy]

Mivydale, as a Swede, do you know the Bullerbu books. (Sorry, spelling?)

These are big in Switzerland, translated into German. Very old fashioned, but lovely female characters!!

Edited: by lovely I of course mean rounded, adventurous and interesting. Not pretty and obedient!

[Pickle]

The problem I have with doing a post-book chat/critique is that you run the risk of taking the fun out of reading books. My older children are at the point where they are just beginning to be able to independently read books and watching that journey unfold (as a lifetime lover of reading) is one of the most rewarding points of parenthood so far.

As I type, youngest Pickle (13 months, girl) is bottom shuffling round the room with a rifle saying "bang". We read "That's Not My Fairy" earlier...

[canela]

discussions on sexist attitudes in our house came - surprisingly - from Bambi! After watching the bit where Bambi and a rival fight for the doe Celine's affections, my 6 year old son came out with the question, "But why don't they just let her choose which one she wants to be with?"

having said that, i have noticed that since he started school it has started to be all anti-pink, anti-girlie etc. these gender stereotypes affect boys as well as boys. my daughter still not at school so is boyish as wants to be like brother. but i presume that changes. it is very difficult - but so important - to instill in children a confidence to be able to be different from the crowd when they want to be.

a word of caution to those who want to ban the barbies. whilst i completely understand the sentiment - and would not go looking for them myself - i was raised by an arch feminist and everything barbie-like was banned and very stridently disapproved of. so my and my sis would disappear to play with dolls in secret. when my mum came in, we would pretend they were going rock climbing, instead of just changing their clothes.

[WorkingMummy]

Hmmm, yes, Pickle.

Like I say, no signs of my girls actually being submissive.

Although oldest does get wracked by guilt over "not being kind" (she is kind!!)

I don't mind play violence. Violence has a place. My own 2yo girl likes to point pens at people and say "kill, kill". I respond by keeling over.

I guess one thing is, I love lit-crit. Not of the, "what is alliteration" kind. More of the, "what the f is this character on? what would you do?" type.

Cannot ever imagine putting my kids off books. The surest way to trigger a meltdown is to decline to read to them (for eg when in the shower, and they are at the bathroom door...)

[WorkingMummy]

Canela - that is the best argument against a ban. Slam dunk winner.

[Pickle]

canela, that's brilliant. As a parent, given the choice, I'd much rather my kids were sneaking off to play Barbies than smoke/drink/take drugs :)

[ClaireClaire]

WorkingMum, I will pm you.

[canela]

mmmm... must admit we did sneak off for slightly stronger stuff when a bit older...

tho both of us kept our rebellious streak within the realms of normal and didn't go too far off the rails. nature or nurture?

[WorkingMummy]

Inspired by Midivydale's mention of Swedish authors, I like Astrid Lindgren's books. See:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Noisy-Village-Astrid-Lindgren/dp/014032609X#_

In fact, I know her work in the German translation, as published 40 odd years ago ("Lustiges Bullerbu", "Die Kinder von Bullerbu"). But I'm glad to see they made it into English too.

I love these books because, as well as being very charming, they have a good mix of male and female characters. Lindgren reflects, realistically, the slightly different emphasis of girl only versus boys only play. But the children mix a lot, and overall each child has such a wonderful, rounded character. (A favourite scene of mine is Britta climbing to the very top of the roof of the barn and walking right along it, like an elevated gymnastics beam. Her terrified mother sees and shouts at her to come down.)

Each of my girls particularly identified with the lovable trouble making toddler, Kerstin, at aged 2-3.

[WorkingMummy]

Midivydale,

Sorry, only just noticed that your recommendation of Pippi Longstocking IS a Lindgren book.

Never heard of it before today but will definitely buy it now.

[Worker]

WM, great work keeping this thread going, but who's the sucker client you're charging this time out to? Go on, you know everyone has a 'default' client!

[WorkingMummy]

I'm waiting for a jury. Which means I have to be at court, but have no work to do.

So no sucker client.

Sorry to disappoint.

[midivydale]

Hilarious! Also check "lotta" "madicken" and "tjorven" oh i do hope that they are all translated as every child deserves to read them. If not let us have a group story time and I will translate them.

Anyone looking for timeless, wonderful childrens books check astrid lindgren.

I saw that the bookshop on upland road (or is it north cross?) do pippi.

[snowboarder]

'Lotta' is def translated - we loved it as children - to the point that we named our new puppy Lotta!!

Now I have 2 super hero/power ranger obsessed boys...hmm...I'll get it for them!

('Though - one of youngest's fave books currently is 'The Night Pirates' - a whole crew of rough, tough little girl pirates stealing a load of treasure :-))