Rwanda

[johnie]

What the AF? What have we become?

[Waseley]

One would expect that they tested this proposal first, focus groups, surveys and the like. It is usual for this government also to leak a little to the right wing media too. One could also ask whether it came from the PM, Home Sec, and advisor.

To me it feels like Nazi Germany. I was going to post earlier but felt I would offend. On further consideration I still feel this way. I can't recall anything so wrong from my government in my lifetime. Apologies for my Frank views.

[sweetgirl]

johnie Wrote:

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> What the AF? What have we become?

My thought exactly 🤨

[TheCat]

Waseley Wrote:

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>

> To me it feels like Nazi Germany. I was going to

> post earlier but felt I would offend. On further

> consideration I still feel this way. I can't

> recall anything so wrong from my government in my

> lifetime. Apologies for my Frank views.

So much like the Nazis, that something almost identical was attempted by Israel a few years back?

https://inews.co.uk/news/rwanda-scheme-might-not-work-offshore-asylum-schemes-failures-1577123

Look, I dont like this plan much either. But perhaps dial back on the hyperbole?

[Sue]

This is just the latest from this government, isn't it.

A gradual slipping further and further down until the unthinkable becomes the acceptable. Drip drip drip.

One wonders where this country is going to end up.

And why so many people appear not to notice what is happening. Or why if they do notice, they don't care.

[Alan Medic]

From what I saw in a report from Rwanda, there is only one building prepared for arrivals and it houses 100 people. This 'news' is a convenient distraction from other less palatable news for the Conservative party and in particular the PM. Mind you, the fact they are thinking like this, is pretty disgusting.

[IlonaM]

See below/link for petition & link to write to MP: https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,2271469

I am disgusted and sickened by Johnson & Patel. The Government have been thinking about this for some years, but it has always been shelved due to opposition across the board. Sadly the tories are not the first either. When I was in practice Blair toyed with the idea but abandoned it as it was deeply unpopular and unworkable [https://qarn.org.uk/off-shoring-people-seeking-asylum-is-not-a-new-idea/].

The idea of sending asylum seekers in need of international protection to Rwanda, a country with a very questionable human rights record and recent history of genocide, beggars belief. The Guardian has a good article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/14/rwanda-human-rights-fears-paul-kagame

UNHCR's response reported: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/15/un-refugee-agency-condemns-johnsons-rwanda-asylum-plan

[Spartacus]

Whilst this is possibly not the correct path to follow, given that the government are planning on opening more safe routes into the UK, how would people propose to removing the people smugglers from the equation?

[Sephiroth]

I?m not sure comparing any countries policy to that of the state of Israel is all that wise

But in any case they attempted it and abandoned it as a disaster

What makes uk think they will do this better? (Because it will be another humiliation at best. Inflicting misery on others for no reason than to throw red meat to the core racists who will never be happy in any case. Farage kicking off about it, about not having finished Brexit. Blah blah)

[diable rouge]

''So much like the Nazis, that something almost identical was attempted by Israel a few years back?''

I don't get this line of reasoning at all, it's like saying a victim of racism can't then later go onto to act in a racist way themselves.

Due to it's history, it would obviously be insensitive to call Israel actual Nazi's, but if it had a policy that mirrored a policy the Nazi's used, then that parallel needs to be drawn, likewise with the UK.

And it isn't hyperbole to suggest such a parallel exists, this from Sir Richard Evans, Professor Emeritus of History at Cambridge...

''I'm not the only historian of modern Germany to find that the UK government scheme to deport asylum seekers to a tropical part of Africa irresistibly reminds them of the failed Nazi scheme to deport Jews to Madagascar.''

Leaving aside the shameful inhumanity of what is essentially a deportation scheme, it's good to highlight Israel's use of a similar policy because it ultimately failed. This from journalist Mathew Thompson...

Between 2014 and 2017, Israel is estimated to have deported around 4,000 asylum seekers to Rwanda and Uganda.

Nearly every single one of them left. Many were smuggled back towards Europe, facing capture by militias, Islamic State, and a perilous crossing of the Med.

Commenting on the policy in 2017, the UN Refugee Agency said it was "concerned that these persons have not found adequate safety or a durable solution to their plight."

It also said it was only aware of nine people who had stayed in Rwanda. Nine

In 2018, Israeli newspaper @haaretzcom tracked down six of those who had stayed, and wrote that:

"All six live a meager existence in Kigali, struggling to survive."

Is this "building a new life in a dynamic country" as Johnson has just said?

Indeed, one of the deportees Haaretz spoke to had been living on the street for two months.

That is not to say it is definitely the fate that awaits people deported from Britain. But the UK must surely be alive to the dangers.

The final warning from Israel's experience is that after a significant public backlash, and legal intervention from the Supreme Court, the scheme fell apart.

The Gov will know all about Israel's policy and why it failed, yet they are still prepared to shame 'Global Britain' on the world stage just to deflect from the domestic mess of their own making.

And judging by the Mail's front page, Johnson has already laid the ground for the eventual narrative to his Brexit base that he would've got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky 'left wing lawyers'...

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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>

> What makes uk think they will do this better?

>

Well here's something we can all agree on. It wont. (too many ethical, logisitcal, legal and political flaws). Certianly not from the perspective of successfully re-settling a large number of illegal immigrants/refugees.

But to be honest, im not really sure if even those in government actually expect it to work sustainably....

But....it may be successful in two other areas....1) winning votes from anti-immigration voters, with headlines showing the govt is 'doing something'; and 2) acting as a deterrent for potential use of the people smugglers (even if its doesnt operate for very long or for very many cases).

As spartacus alludes to above, if combined with the expansion of other 'legitimate' asylum pathways, then even if largely unused, the 'idea' of it actually could fulfill a purpose. Whether thats the intent or not, I've no idea.

[johnie]

I'm struggling to understand who these policies are aimed at pleasing. Is it a set of voters, a clique in the conservative party, or party doners? The first I think is diminishing (I hope), the second is already dug in, and the third, well, why?

[fishbiscuits]

diable rouge Wrote:

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> Between 2014 and 2017, Israel is estimated to have

> deported around 4,000 asylum seekers to Rwanda and

> Uganda.

>

> Nearly every single one of them left. Many were

> smuggled back towards Europe, facing capture by

> militias, Islamic State, and a perilous crossing

> of the Med.

Of course they will leave Rwanda. The govt's thinking is probably that they will try another country instead.

[Angelina]

Didn?t Australia put something like this in place, which dramatically reduced the number of immigrants attempting to enter Australia?

[heartblock]

The Home Office has now admitted that the proposed legislation, which is due to go back to the House of Commons this week, in fact contains no provision to provide safe government-backed routes for asylum seekers.

A letter dated 5 April from Home Office minister Tom Pursglove to the humanitarian charity MSF UK directly contradicts Patel by stating that safe and legal routes ?do not form part of the bill?.

So Patel lied to Parliament...

[Sue]

😡😡😡

[IlonaM]

Who knew Jacob Rees-Mogg could sink even lower, 'Rwanda asylum plan is ?almost Easter story of redemption?, says Rees-Mogg' [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/17/uk-asylum-seekers-plan-rwanda-jacob-rees-mogg]. Seeking to justify the policy in Christianity is akin to the former South African government seeking to justify Apartheid by relying on the Bible. The man is no christian.

And more details of the deal emerge: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rwanda-asylum-seekers-refugees-uk-b2060008.html - ?Immoral trade in human beings?: UK slammed for deporting asylum seekers in return for Rwanda refugees

Ministers also criticised for planning to send modern slavery victims to east African country despite condemning its failure to support trafficked people only last year

[hammerman]

Angelina Wrote:

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> Didn?t Australia put something like this in place,

> which dramatically reduced the number of

> immigrants attempting to enter Australia

Yes they did and now the UK are doing the same.

[diable rouge]

hammerman Wrote:

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> Angelina Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Didn?t Australia put something like this in

> place,

> > which dramatically reduced the number of

> > immigrants attempting to enter Australia

>

> Yes they did and now the UK are doing the same.

The UK isn't doing the same as Australia.

Australia has an 'offshore-processing' system, and if asylum seekers are granted asylum I presume they can return to Australia legally.

The UK is deporting asylum seekers to Rwanda. That's it. Nothing else is happening. There's no processing system in Rwanda to see if they can apply for asylum in the UK. All they can do is claim asylum in Rwanda, or more likely, make their way back to Europe.

I read somewhere over the weekend that as part of this deal with Rwanda the UK will be receiving a limited number of other asylum seekers that Rwanda doesn't want.

So, here we are, a supposed modern liberal democracy that now trades in 'human cargo'. It's like a form of modern-day slavery where humans are treated as commodities to be exchanged and bartered with.

Utterly shameful...

[diable rouge]

''But....it may be successful in two other areas....1) winning votes from anti-immigration voters, with headlines showing the govt is 'doing something' ''

A Mail on Sunday poll put immigration in 11th place as to what were voters main concerns...

[KidKruger]

If we?re deporting immigrants to Rwanda, I can understand why polls show immigration 11th in the list of concerns.

[diable rouge]

The Rwanda deal hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not sure it's had any impact on people's thoughts about immigration.

I think immigration has actually gone up since the EU ref, with EU immigration being replaced by Non-EU immigration, but that never makes the front pages of the right-wing papers, when previously it did because it was a convenient stick with which to hit the EU with.

A lot of the channel crossings are asylum seekers not immigrants, and they only make up about 6% of all immigration. It's just that they are far more visible and as Cat rightly says, the Gov wants to be seen to be doing something. The Gov is basically the school bully picking on the weakest in the class.

The Gov could've of course create safe legal routes with processing centres here in the UK, or even in France as they have offered to do so, but that would be far too sensible and wouldn't make the headlines...

[diable rouge]

Bit of research, the poll was carried out before the Rwanda deal was announced.

Here's a graph showing the steady decline of immigration being a concern for voters...

[JohnL]

It wasn't just the Archbishops of Canterbury and York criticising this but the Pope made a little reference too (without saying UK).

[IlonaM]

Spartacus Wrote:

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> Whilst this is possibly not the correct path to

> follow, given that the government are planning on

> opening more safe routes into the UK, how would

> people propose to removing the people smugglers

> from the equation?

The Independent has given a helpful list of suggestions made to the Government regarding the creation of safe routes etc. - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rwanda-asylum-refugee-deal-solutions-b2060940.html