swastikas (on bus ticket machines) (Lounged)

[snorky]

Not another thread on nazis...

[spadetownboy]

im with louisa on this one,bit of an over reaction folks, yes we all know too well the swastika was hi-jacked in the past by hitler and his cronies and what happened before and during ww2, but some how i dont think a few swastikas daubbed around the place is going to be the work of an underground nazi sect in east dulwich or peckham for that matter, and that lordship lane will soon reverberate to the sound of jackboots with mass rallies held on peckham rye. its likely a prank by a couple of drunken eejits specifically designed to rile the good citizens of our area, and i bet if they had the ability to read this thread they would be killing themselves laughing at how well its worked.

[Moos]

Er, was anyone over-reacting? I didn't see any suggestions we all march, sign petitions, harass our MP... ? We were just discussing it and expressing distaste. It was only when a poster opined that we shouldn't even notice it or discuss it that a bit more feeling came into the thread, and in my opinion rightly so. Not to even notice when swastikas decorate our neighbourhood? That would be very strange, so no let's not all tear our hair out (in case anyone was....) but yes let's talk about it, let's be clear where we stand and then if it doesn't happen again let's move on.

*Bob* - clearly you love to bring a lighthearted tone to threads, and I usually think it's brilliant - but I know you don't think the Nazi party ceased to exist half a century ago?

[spadetownboy]

somehow i dont think the area is decorated in swastikas.

anyway on the subject of right wing politics,swastikas etc, if anyone is interested jean-marie le pen is selling his bullet proof car on e-bay to raise some needed funds, might come in handy when the black shirts start marauding down the lane.

[*Bob*]

There has only ever been one 'Nazi' Party: The NSDAP, which ceased to be as any sort of political anything with the demise of Hitler. That's what 'Nazi' means - the NSDAP.

If everybody's planning on lecturing everybody else about not knowing about this or that (even though everyone does know anyway) then I thought I might as well help-out with a few key historical facts.

[Brendan]

Louisa Wrote:

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> How on earth can this story warrant a thread?

> Ridiculous. The Swastika isnt just a symbol of

> 1930s political unrest in Germany, it is also an

> ancient Hindu symbol and was used in sub-saharan

> African tribes in the 17th and 18th century as a

> form of fertility right. If all we have to worry

> about in 21st century London is a few swastikas on

> a dustbin, when we have crime taxation and

> transport worries then god help us.

>

> Louisa.

I agree. They could have been intended to mean just about anything. Possibly just the remnants of the African fertility rights that go on in the evenings around here. What with the Eat Dulwich Swazi quarter in the Barry Road triangle and the Kalahari Bushmen collective who live around Goose Green.

[Brendan]

Ironically swastikas were worn by some of the ZANU guerrillas in the Rhodesian Bush War on the assumption that anything anti-British = good.

[rob]

I agree Brendan. I think if we all calm down a little we'll remember that almost all instances throughtout history of Swastikas on windows are merely situationist pranks by hi-spirited humanities students. Thank goodness for Louise's cool head!

[RosieH]

cripes, I'm hoping it was Prince Harry up to high jinks. or perhaps it was a double bluff by Ken's supporters, setting the cat among the pigeons that there's a neo-nazi movement in leafy east dulwich and we'd darn well better vote him back in with his Rock Against Racism 'n' that...

I walked past 5 swastikas painted on bins, the bus shelter and ticket machine, seemingly there's at least one more on a shopfront. I'm not about to get all "First they came for..." on you - clearly this is not a fascist crimewave: but the horrors of Nazi Germany are still in living memory, and Jewish cemetaries have been desecrated recently enough for the swastika still to retain its potency and potential to disturb.

[wee quinnie]

Just seen one on Fellbrigg Rd. Makes me shudder.

[snorky]

Its just a wanker or two and unlikely to be part of an orchestrated campaign to drive out non aryans

[*Bob*]

Your swastika is dream scrawling material for a certain percentage of graffiti morons.

It's quick to do, requires no special artistic skill and has the immediate power to offend - job done.

It might mean something on another bus shelter somewhere else, but I don't think it amounts to very much round here.. and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Nazis, who (adjusts mortar board again) don't exist any more.

[david_carnell]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> It might mean something on another bus shelter

> somewhere else, but I don't think it amounts to

> very much round here.. and it certainly doesn't

> have anything to do with Nazis, who (adjusts

> mortar board again) don't exist any more.

November 9th Society

[*Bob*]

Ahh.. you mean neo-Nazis?

Well, yes, there are those. The joker in question you cite bagged an impressive 78 votes in 2007.

Not quite up to Third Reich/NSDAP standards, I'm sure you'll agree.

[RosieH]

excellent - as I said neo-nazi do I get a gold star?

[*Bob*]

You do, Rosie.

Every else - see me.

It may seem nit-picky, but I think sometimes nitpicking is relevant on a forum where searching for 'Nazi' will probably yield more results relating to traffic wardens than anything to do with Nazis or indeed neo-Nazis.

But I suppose that's just a bit of fun, isn't it?!

[david_carnell]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ahh.. you mean neo-Nazis?

> Well, yes, there are those. The joker in question

> you cite bagged an impressive 78 votes in 2007.

>

> Not quite up to Third Reich/NSDAP standards, I'm

> sure you'll agree.

Nazis; neo-nazis?

It's all semantics. If they called themselves the pink fluffy elf party it wouldn't make a jot of difference to their beliefs. Small in number they may be, but frankly 78 votes is 78 too many. But N19S aren't the only ones.

The internet is riddled with these divs:

Combat18

Redwatch

Don't pretend they're not worth worrying about because the NSDAP got disbaned 50 years ago. And the ANL do a good job of bringing these loons to public attention (along with the Jewish Chronicle), so don't knock 'em.

[*Bob*]

I think you're getting 'semantics' mixed-up with 'the facts'

You're right though.. we do need to keep an eye on them. Otherwise one day we might find ourselves stuck with a government who sees fit to invade.. oh yeah..

[david_carnell]

Very well.

Will everyone please note all future discussion of swastikas (be it localised or international) must be accompanied by the disclaimer that you are fully aware of the history of fascism in Europe in the 20th century, and that any reference on your part to nazis must be seen in the modern neo-nazi context rather than implying you're an idiot who doesn't know his sieg-heil from his goose-step.

Otherwise our resident history teacher gets uppity.

Carry on.

[*Bob*]

Carnell! You, Boy! Sit down.

Not uppity, really. I just feel that if you're planning on telling other people to, like, go and check your history books, yeah..? then the least you can do is to make sure you've read your own first.

[snorky]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Very well.

>

> Will everyone please note all future discussion of

> swastikas (be it localised or international) must

> be accompanied by the disclaimer that you are

> fully aware of the history of fascism in Europe in

> the 20th century, and that any reference on your

> part to nazis must be seen in the modern neo-nazi

> context rather than implying you're an idiot who

> doesn't know his sieg-heil from his goose-step.

>

> Otherwise our resident history teacher gets

> uppity.

>

> Carry on.

Please sir,

can we extend this to include The 19th century Italian nationalist Romantic poets and the Blood & Soil School of Germanic thought that laid the ground for 20th Cetuty mainstream fascism ? I do think it is relevant

[furryjumpergirl]

Whatever its cultural background, I find it hard to separate the symbol from the movement it's most famous for. Having a swastika positioned at the entrance to my street at the moment is horrible. Walking past it is horrible. Wondering whether cars driving past assume my lovely street is now a Nazi /Neo-Nazi stronghold is horrible!

[*Bob*]

snorky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Please sir,

>

> can we extend this to include The 19th century

> Italian nationalist Romantic poets and the Blood &

> Soil School of Germanic thought that laid the

> ground for 20th Cetuty mainstream fascism ? I do

> think it is relevant

No.

I didn't do that course and would therefore be woefully ill-prepared to spout off about it in a tedious fashion.

[Administrator]

I think it's now time to move this discussion to the Lounge as it is no longer East Dulwich specific

[RosieH]

-- moved topic --