Child hit by car (she's fine), Lordship lane with upland

[binary_star]

Loz Wrote:

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> I don't want to see anyone breaking the law. I hate to see

> drivers OR cyclists saying 'boo hoo, you should be

> hassling someone else'.

> Everyone obeys the law = everyone is safer.

I agree but you have to have realistic expectations. You wouldn't expect the same amount of Police resource to go on bringing teenage shoplifters to justice as it does on serial killers. It's all very well getting grumpy over a cyclist jumping reds but statistically they just don't pose much of a threat to anyone but ocasionally themselves. I mean really... I think stats above indicated a whopping TEN fatalities over FOUR YEARS.

As tragic as those ten fatalities were, as a pedestrian you're 263 times more likely to be killed by a motor vehicle than by a bicycle:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090126/text/90126w0003.htm#09012627000041

However riled it gets you Loz it just isn't as big of an issue.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think the families of those ten people would take issue with that. Are you arguing that cyclists who break the rules of the road are somehow less reprehensible because they are not as likely to kill someone doing so? Anyone that thinks they are not subject to the highway code shouldn't be on the road...be they vehicle driver or cyclist.

[binary_star]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> I think the families of those ten people would

> take issue with that.

With what?

Are you arguing that

> cyclists who break the rules of the road are

> somehow less reprehensible because they are not as

> likely to kill someone doing so?

No.

Anyone that

> thinks they are not subject to the highway code

> shouldn't be on the road...be they vehicle driver

> or cyclist.

Agree.

Think you have misunderstood. I was saying that although ten pedestrian fatalities have been caused by cyclists, in the same time frame many many more have been caused by motorists. Lets think of their families?

[henryb]

Loz Wrote:

> I'd be more than happy with that. I don't want to

> see anyone breaking the law. I hate to see

> drivers OR cyclists saying 'boo hoo, you should be

> hassling someone else'.

Well as this is a thread is about a little girl who was hit by a car whose driver was by some accounts driving recklessly it would be good if you took your own advice.

[Loz]

henryb Wrote:

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> Loz Wrote:

>

> > I'd be more than happy with that. I don't want to

> > see anyone breaking the law. I hate to see

> > drivers OR cyclists saying 'boo hoo, you should be

> > hassling someone else'.

>

> Well as this is a thread is about a little girl

> who was hit by a car whose driver was by some

> accounts driving recklessly it would be good if

> you took your own advice.

One account. And a rather dubious one with an obvious agenda at that.

So henryb, do you believe that all road users should obey the law or not? Or is it 'boo hoo, you should be hassling someone else'?

[Penguin68]

You wouldn't expect the same amount of Police resource to go on bringing teenage shoplifters to justice as it does on serial killers.

As a lot of police metrics is on clear-up rates - getting one teenager to 'cough' to loads of shoplifting offences can count a lot more than just lifting a serial killer who's probably only committed 5-10 offences. Additionally most of the hard work in terms of observation, initial 'arrest' and evidence handling is done by store detectives - so I would quite expect the modern day police force to be very happy to put resource into charging teenage shoplifters, particularly where they can hope for a wedge of TICs to go with that. Equally road-traffic offences are a nice little 'metric' earner when it comes down to it.

[binary_star]

Sorry Penguin I meant more resource per criminal not overall. So you wouldn't expect forensics teams, sniffer dogs and psychological profilers to be resourced because Dave nicked a DVD from the market. Anyway it was a poor example and didnt really illustrate my point very well

...which was that until cyclists start causing a lot more pedestrian deaths (or drivers stop causing as many) you won't see the same level of resource because although the impact is the same in the case of a fatality, there are just far far far fewer fatalities caused by cyclists.

In the same vein, the spot where this little girl got hit probably won't get any attention until accidents there start causing injury/death or many more incidents are reported to the Police. James Barber said as much re the junctions at Underhill/Barry and Upland/Barry. Statistically there just aren't seen as dangerous enough to warrant resource over other junctions in the area.

[Loz]

binary_star Wrote:

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> ...which was that until cyclists start causing a lot more pedestrian deaths (or drivers stop

> causing as many) you won't see the same level of resource because although the impact is the same

> in the case of a fatality, there are just far far far fewer fatalities caused by cyclists.

I'm not arguing for the same level of police resource - not even near it. I'm saying that cyclists should stop asking for the law to not apply to them until the day that all drivers are 110% law abiding. Is asking for the rules to apply to everyone too much to ask for? Henryb was almost there until I rather surprised him by agreeing with him.

[binary_star]

Loz Wrote:

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> I'm saying that cyclists should stop asking for the law to not apply to them

Who are these people?

[Loz]

All the ones that, every time you mention cyclists obeying the law, they jump in and say 'but whatabout all the terrible car drivers'. See threads passim on EDF. Have to say, you're generally not one of them.

Stamp out bad driving AND bad cycling. Who could argue? Who indeed.

[UncleBen]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> You wouldn't expect the same amount of Police

> resource to go on bringing teenage shoplifters to

> justice as it does on serial killers.

>

> As a lot of police metrics is on clear-up rates -

> getting one teenager to 'cough' to loads of

> shoplifting offences can count a lot more than

> just lifting a serial killer who's probably only

> committed 5-10 offences. Additionally most of the

> hard work in terms of observation, initial

> 'arrest' and evidence handling is done by store

> detectives - so I would quite expect the modern

> day police force to be very happy to put resource

> into charging teenage shoplifters

x x x x x

what about teenage serial killers?! Traffic laws/highway code applies to ALL road users. End of.

[binary_star]

I personally don't know anyone who thinks the law shouldn't apply to them and I don't infer that from any comments on the EDF either. But the law already DOES apply to everyone we don't have to campaign for it to. So what is the issue?

[Loz]

Fantastic - another convert to visible registration for cyclists, perhaps?

[binary_star]

Loz Wrote:

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> Fantastic - another convert to visible

> registration for cyclists, perhaps?

Yeh sure I'm already insured, registration, why not? Although the cost of running such a scheme likely makes it a prohibitive factor in introducing it. Which is why the Swiss got rid of it.

It wouldn't really work in the UK though:

http://ipayroadtax.com/licensed-to-cycle/licensed-to-cycle/

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Another crash today on the same road , a car buckled so a write off but the passengers and baby thankfully were unharmed .

[mynamehere]

Wow: Imagine cyclists wizzing along at 30+ never letting others cross, crashing, taking out road furniture at the expense of us all.

Today I cycled to the Imperial War Museum area and then to the 205 at Belair Park. 1 1/2 hours transit round trip (exercise) to 7 1/2 hours of activity in 2 locations passing cars queued in all directions coming and going. I had a great Sunday. Whoever crashed their car had a cr*p Sunday. No crashed cycles to be seen anywhere.

[DJKillaQueen]

WOW. Imagine vehicles jumping red lights by the dozen, driving at night with no lights, weaving in and out of stationary cyclists without looking................

Today I went to a car boot sale in Hayes.....drove there in no time at all and took only slightly longer to get home. I had a great Sunday too :)

[mynamehere]

I know you did DJ. I almost wish I'd gone with you. This conversation is really about congested urban areas. We're not talking about the trips that really truly are car trips. I make them too. By car!

[DJKillaQueen]

Yeah but I tire of this incessant, drivers bad, cyclists good debate. It's road user attitude that needs to change with consideration by ALL for all. Then there would be no preventable accidents.

[mynamehere]

I guess that's true, by definition

[binary_star]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> This incessant, drivers bad, cyclists good debate.

In many cases these are one in the same. People don't become raging murderous lunatics once they get behind the wheel of a car. Just far far more likely to kill someone. It's not the person it's the vehicle.

[binary_star]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> WOW. Imagine vehicles jumping red lights by the

> dozen, driving at night with no lights, weaving in

> and out of stationary cyclists without

> looking................

>

Wow. Stereotype, much?

[binary_star]

Loz Wrote:

--------------------------------------------------

> I'm saying that cyclists should stop asking for the law to not apply to them

binary_star Wrote:

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> Who are these people?

Loz Wrote:

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> All the ones that, every time you mention cyclists obeying the law, they jump in and say 'but whatabout all the terrible car drivers'.

Except, in this instance, the issue was that a little girl had been knocked down by a car. But it turned into a thread about how dangerous cyclists are and a call for bicycle registration. Huh.

[LadyDeliah]

Car drivers on here seem to get defensive and try to deflect critic onto cyclists whenever there is anything that might put them in a negative light.

It seems pointless trying to pierce their defensive armour with logical arguments as their inability to look at the harm their addiction to car causes them to be blind to criticism resulting in circular, repetitive and pointless arguments.

Typical of all most addicts really.

[the-e-dealer]

Cyclists on here seem to get defensive and try to deflect critic onto motorists whenever there is anything that might put them in a negative light.

It seems pointless trying to pierce their defensive armour with logical arguments as their inability to look at the harm their addiction to cycle causes them to be blind to criticism resulting in circular, repetitive and pointless arguments.

Typical of all most addicts really.