'Major incident' in Woolwich

[El Pibe]

Not the time or place.

We all know that all religions have positive messages, we also know they're full of dubious morals, and we all know that people interpret things how they want to justify their actions.

It's not an interesting debate, it's tragically tiresome on a million levels, today has added more tragedy and I don't doubt more ennui for the reactions to come.

[????]

Not the time or place, never is....

[natty01295]

why ????

[????]

EDF rules, shhhhhhh

HUffington post link an interesting article with many truths Snorks

[natty01295]

how and why can this happen / would this happen

????

[stacey-lyn]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> My gut says to call this terrorism flatters it and

> gives it political justification to some extent.

>

> To me this is just pointless nihilistic violence,

> it's murder.

> It's kicking someone to death because they're a

> goth with pierced lips, or homosexual walking home

> from vauxhall, or running a cyclist over because

> they don't pay road tax.

>

> The cheap bullshit political claptrap whilst

> narcissistically posturing for the cameras suggest

> a degree of sociopathy to me.

>

> Boring thoughts aside my heart goes out to the

> family of the chap killed, utterly horrific.

These assailants plus the 9/11 & 7/7, Boston perpetrators and so on could arguably all be sociopaths, and nihilists and narcissists and many other things however I stick by the term 'terrorist'. Perhaps this UN's description clarifies my point: "Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."

You may call it political claptrap, but to these (and the others yet to come), the ideology and motivation legitimise the act and more significantly, it satisfies vengeance.

It is wholly repugnant.

[El Pibe]

Well if you'd bothered listening to his claptrap he didn't see himself as instilling terror but provoking salvation from political tyranny.

You don't ask those you're trying to terrorise casually to film you whilst you tell them to overthrow their rulers and bring their troops back home.

To believe ones actions can provoke ones desires when they are so profoundly only going to result in imprisonment or death shows a massive disconnect with reality. If they'd wanted to terrorise the populace that could have been achieved.

But whatever Lawrence, we've always seen things differently and will continue to.

[maxxi]

EP: "To believe ones actions can provoke ones desires when they are so profoundly only going to result in imprisonment or death shows a massive disconnect with reality."

aka - religion.

Your statement could be said to apply to any religious figure/prophet/saint.

[Charles Martel]

woodrot Wrote:

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> expect much anti islam agitation and posturing out

> of this. it could be a marinus van den lubbe type

> of trigger for the short of sense

Really? I expect the usual "not all muslims are bad" line we always get in the aftermath of every such atrocity.

Better comparison would be Herschel Grynszpan who provided the justification for Kristallnacht.

[El Pibe]

Oh you get no argument from me on that count maxxi.

[Otta]

7/7 bombs caused terror.

Yesterday caused horror.

Is horrorism a word? It should be, I have decided.

[JohnL]

Seems that in Iraq, N Ireland, Mexico etc. crimes that could be said to provoke terror actually

Provoke more and worse crimes.

That's the real terrorism if it starts, no individual action.

[edhistory]

Charles Martel Wrote:

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http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/notes/tours.html

John K

[edcam]

ratty Wrote:

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Nothing to do with Islam which is a peace loving faith!

Well that's not true. Nor is it true of Christianity. few faiths are "peace loving". That doesn't mean that Islam should be blamed for this atrocity though.

[TE44]

We hear again and again after killings, "god told me to do it" but I've never known it cause people to react

against christianity. My grown up children were saying the amount of racism coming through the net was unbelievable.

This is a horrific thing to happen but it is crazy to blame a religion for two individuals act.

Didn't Bush himself say, god told me to end the tyranny in Iraq,and by god I will.

I feel for the family and loved ones, and hope they have some privacy to grieve.

sorry edited for mistake on bush quot

[DJKillaQueen]

I think religion has nothing to do with it. These were two guys who are clearly dangerous and psychopathic. The one speaking to the camera on sky news had a south London accent and probably grew up here (if not born here also). Worse still they were driving around with knives and meat cleavers in their vehicle. It was probably a murder waiting to happen, if not today, tomorrow, next week. And if not a soldier, or help for heroes supporter, it would have been someone else for some other reason down the line. The killing I think was random. The motive random. The preparedness to kill someone, real. No doubt in the coming weeks information will be released about the two killers, and many of us will not be suprised by it, probably.

[JohnL]

just buzzed up that both suspects are 'known to security services'

and one known to Anjem Choudary

[stacey-lyn]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> I think religion has nothing to do with it. These

> were two guys who are clearly dangerous and

> psychopathic. The one speaking to the camera on

> sky news had a south London accent and probably

> grew up here (if not born here also). Worse still

> they were driving around with knives and meat

> cleavers in their vehicle. It was probably a

> murder waiting to happen, if not today, tomorrow,

> next week. And if not a soldier, or help for

> heroes supporter, it would have been someone else

> for some other reason down the line. The killing I

> think was random. The motive random.

Have to disagree here. The motive was far from random - again, it was to take revenge and highlight injustices (perceived or real). It seems that one identified assailant was known as "Mujahid" defined as a Muslim engaged in what he considers to be a jihad (ie a struggle, however it is used more commonly and erroneously to mean waging war). This was a tactical and calculated act. This is by no means justification, but merely goes towards the bigger picture which is continually unfolding.

[Santerme]

The only thing random about this was the victim, I suspect...it could have been almost anyone who had walked out of the barracks..

The motive was verbalised by the perp and far from random.

RIP the gent who was brutally murdered...and condolences to his family and friends.

[the-e-dealer]

I agree they clearly had a 'motive' even it was a very confused picture of the world.

[Otta]

No one can deny that the motive was all about the jihad, they told us by film, it's not a mystery.

He went to uni, so can't be as thick as I'd first suspected (not that you need to be especially bright to go to uni).

Who knows what makes a young guy, raised in a Christian Nigerian family in East London, believe in something enough to do this to a stranger on the street.

I still think that however nasty / horrible a crime this was, it's not particularly helpful to be harping on about a terrorist attack.

[El Pibe]

After madrid bombs people were scared, after 9/11 they were scared, after the london bombs more so.

I'm afraid this hasn't even made topic for discussion at work today and I saw no furtive glances at fellow commuters this morning.

Yes, obviously this man framed his actions within his own warped world view and can be said to be political in origin, but in my head at least the word terrorist defines the actions of a wider organisation with cogent political goals, be it independence, a caliphate or disproportionate repsonse.

This is more like the 'white wolf' chap or Anders Breivik, just lashing out at things they hate.

Also insistence on the label suggests motives on the part of the labeller, whatever that may be.

Cameron's attempt at Churchillian statesmanship in 'crisis' just made me laugh (and sob a little).

We will not buckle; ffs; most people will simply see it as some sort of newsgasm of ghoulish entertainment, whilst espousing platitudes of sympathy and carry on with their lives unhindered, or maybe that was just me.

[*Bob*]

With you there all the way Pibe.

[Chillaxed]

What EP said, plus props to the woman who spoke to them and asked them to drop their weapons.

[TE44]

I find it strange that many of the people standing about or passing seemed to show no signs of fear.

And if it was a member of the public that filmed him, as has been reported, can't imagine, i'd be

terrified.