LTN Discussion

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

CPR Dave Wrote:

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> Will One Dulwich stand on a promise of removing

> the LTNs and starting again with a scheme that

> works? I would vote for them if they did.

1) that would be great - they'd have to be more transparent about their funding for a start.

2) I suppose if your sole focus was whether or not you could drive down a specific street any time you want, and you had zero interest in education, social care, planning, housing, parks, waste management or anything else local government does, then yes, voting for a single issue candidate would be a great idea.

3) have any of those who think Southwark is an autocratic regime or single party state ever actually spent much time in a genuine authoritarian regime? Or do they really think their plight is comparable to the average Uyghur or Aleppo resident? We're not talking torture camps or barrel bombs here, we're talking about whether some roads in suburban London are open or closed to cars.

[Rockets]

It's going to be interesting to see what the Lib Dems do - they have a couple of councillors in the north of the borough and if they are smart they could tweak their approach to LTNs to grab a few in the south too on the basis of what is happening around Dulwich? A policy shift to start building some more seats at the Tooley Street table could benefit their long term aims. Lib Dems have done well as council level picking up protest seats against both Tory and Labour incumbents.

I agree we need more than a one policy councillor as this is much broader than just LTNs.

It was interesting to see that an FOI has revealed pressure was being exerted on Lambeth and TFL to help resolve the Croxted Road issue as "there are elections coming in May".

Our councillors know they are under pressure - their margins are tiny and they know that if people mobilise to vote against them they are under pressure. If everyone registered with One Dulwich in the area voted against the local councillors and galvanised behind specific candidates the political landscape could change massively.

Going to be fun to watch!

DKHB - your 3rd point deserves no response, such is the ludicrous nature of it....deary me....

[DuncanW]

Some contributors to this thread have short memories it would seem. There was some chat on here around this time last year about wouldn't it be great if there were a candidate in the then forthcoming mayoral election who opposed LTNs, and wouldn't they get a a lot of support. Shaun Bailey opposed LTNS, as did Farah London, Laurence Fox, David Kurten, Brian Rose and the beautifully named, Peter Gammons. You will be aware of the outcome of that election.

Things could all change, of course - and despite all the guff written on here about a one-party state, etc LB Southwark was under Lib/Con control as recently as 2002-2010. Lib Dem support ebbed away coinciding with the Cameron/Clegg coalition, their support for austerity and the reversal of policy on student debt.

[Rockets]

Duncan - you?re confusing and conflating local, regional and national politics. Local politics is very a unpredictable beast and, you never know, maybe change is coming.

Local elections get decided by how much local people feel motivated to vote for councillors and that is mainly determined by how much those councillors have done for the local community over issues like LTNs. Labour and our local councillors are worried by what might happen in the local wards come May and the motivating factor to get people out to vote against them (and remember turnout is always low in council elections so it won?t take much to make a change) will be the LTN debacle.

Apparently the response the councillors got during the door knocking exercise after they extended the LTN consultation period shocked them and made them realise May is not the shoe-in they have enjoyed previously. And the behaviour and attitude of some councillors over the past months has damaged their perception and reputation locally amongst many voters who may never have cared about council elections before.

The problem for some of our councillors is that you cannot fudge, manipulate or dictate the result of an election in the same way you can a consultation and there are a lot of local people who feel the ballot box is the only way they can now be heard.

[DuncanW]

Hi Rockets,

As I said, things can change, as they have in the past. And you are absolutely right - the ballot box is our chance to have our say.

All I'm saying is exactly the same chat was on this forum a year ago, with certain people predicting that candidates opposed to LTNs would do well. That didn't happen.

And I don't believe I am confusing or conflating anything. National, regional and local are all different, but will bleed into each other. I believe one example of that is the erosion of local support for the LibDems reslutant from national policy as outlined above.

Labour are up in the polls, Tories down - LibDems have done well recently, but their candidates are likely to be pro-ltn anyway. So let's see what happens in May... candidate submissions are open until early April, but I don't see anyone mobilising as an Anti-LTN candidate so far, do you fancy giving it a shot?

[Rockets]

Ha ha - I quote the 13th Duke of Wybourne from the Fast Show: Me? Local politics? With my reputation.....;-)

I don't think a candidate at the local level would need to run on an anti-LTN agenda, just a balanced LTN agenda could clean-up a lot of disgruntled local votes and I think the Lib Dems could do that - tweak their policy to promise to listen and adjust LTNs on the basis of local voter sentiment.

Despite the pro-LTN narrative to the contrary, no-one has ever said they want anything more than a more balanced approach to LTNs and that could be easy to deliver politically.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

DuncanW Wrote:

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> all the guff written on here about a one-party

> state, etc

Apparently it's a one-party state in which anyone could stand and easily win an election! 🤣

But then OneDulwich repurposed the white supremacist slogan "All Lives Matter" for its posters, so it's hardly surprising its loudest advocates are not politically astute.

[Rockets]

It was was way back in 2006 - 2010 window that Labour last didn't have a majority in Southwark (and in 2002 and 2006 no one had overall control) and their majority has grown to where they now hold around 80% of the seats.

Any political party needs opposition to keep them honest - goodness me look at the mess at national level we have now because Corbyn and Momentum killed Labour in the election.

We all desperately need Southwark council to have some opposition else the way they are acting over LTNs, the infill in Peckham, the pay-offs to disgraced Labour councillors who set-up fake twitter accounts to attack those who oppose the council goes unchecked and will get worse and worse.

An 80% majority is an unhealthy situation for constituents in any political situation.

[CPR Dave]

So the LTNs are here to stay forever. Great.

We can still kick out the shower that brought them in, though.

Do we need to vote Lib Dem to do that? Would be amazing if some co-ordinated tactical voting happened to teach councillors a lesson about listening to voters.

[Jenijenjen]

I?d be interested to know how many of those urging people to vote tactically against Labour actually voted for Labour in the last council elections. And do they really believe this will either get rid of or modify the LTNs.

[CPR Dave]

i did.

I won't be fooled again.

[Rockets]

Jenijenjen - I didn't vote in the last council elections and will make sure I do this time - this is the danger for Labour - that they have alienated a group of people who have never voted before in council elections and will do this time.

Labour always relies on a core of voters who would never vote anything other than Labour no matter what - in fact, if you pinned a red rose to a turd they would vote for it - but it is your apathetic or swing voters than pose the greatest risk.

One of the things that I heard was worrying Southwark Labour was that their door knocking to lobby people to respond to the LTN consultation targeted registered Labour members and many of them were very unhappy with the councillors over the LTNs and refused to toe-the-line and respond to the consultation. And remember this is what caused the Labour collapse in the Red Wall heartlands during the last election - a Labour leadership lost touch with and alienated their core because they focussed on echo-chamber policies that people on the ground could not relate to.

So, if at the local level if previous non-voters turn out, swing voters make a protest vote and they can't rely on the Labour die-hards then they are in big trouble - as long, of course, as credible candidates run against them that people can relate to - and not just people on the anti-LTN ticket.

I think that's where the Lib Dems come in - they can tweak policy, people can disassociate local Lib Dems from the shower that went into the coalition (look at what happened in the recent by-election before Christmas) and they would be credible.

I have to think they are strategising about it as they could clean-up a few seats in Tooley Street if they are smart.

[smooch]

I wonder if there are any people preparing to stand as independant councillors. I feel many of people are very disappointed by the councillors' refusal to acknowledge real concerns about the current roads situation, and their refusal to do anything but tow the official labour council line. As someone has mentioned, they are unlikely to be able to change council policy but I for one would welcome the opportunity of someone willing to speak on behalf of residents and businesses.

Always voted labour previously but not again.

[Angelina]

it's hardly the party - it's the individuals and the system that needs to be changed.

you really think a Boris team would look after the community?

[CPR Dave]

I want to see the Lib Dems get out of the blocks early with some sensible policies that all residents buy in to. They are beating Labour and the Tories elsewhere and are much better resourced than an independent would be to win and to bring back community interaction into council policy.

[ab29]

Lib Dems have 'traffic calming measures' in their manifesto which, after the LTN makes me want to scream and run away. Hope they will learn from the Labour mistakes.

Much healthier to have a council made up of councillors from different parties instead of a shady one party state which is what Southwark is and has been for years. The utter and complete failure on the Labour councillors' side to engage with worried constituents who have been negatively impacted by the road closures, the sheer arrogance and contempt for said residents they've shown during the whole process has been spectacular and certainly made me into anti Labour for a very very long time.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Don't worry, ab29 - the Lib Dems proved under Nick Clegg that they'll abandon their principles at the slightest sniff of power. If they thought it would get them a councillor, they'll U-turn from "traffic calming" to "motorists' rights" quicker than an angrily driven Range Rover.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Heaven forbid anyone would want traffic calming measures!

[Rockets]

The problem for Labour has been the civil war going on at all levels between the hard-left and centre-left and, unfortunately for us, Southwark is one of the key battlegrounds (I refer you to the great summary by someone on this thread on the battle on-going to replace Harriet Harman).

Once in-fighting starts political parties take their eye off the ball and forget what matters and that's the voters. Given the huge majority Labour has in Southwark they weren't kept honest by having to fight opposition and have become, and continually act like, a one-party state.

Just watch the council meetings and the way the Labour councillors treat the handful of Lib Dem councillors with contempt - it's what happens when you don't have to worry about the opposition - they are a minor inconvenience that have no ability to stop you doing what you want. Labour can basically railroad any policy they want and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Labour at national and local level (less so at regional level - mayor of London, Wales) have become so detached from the electorate it is really quite worrying. They got humiliated by the awful Tories in the general election and even in the North Shropshire by-election their votes dropped from 22.1% in 2019 to 9.7% but that got lost in the headlines about the Tories losing their 200-year old safe seat to the Lib Dems who I don't think anyone thought would ever win another seat after the coalition disaster.

I think people are getting fed-up with Labour continually ignoring the electorate and then trying to blame everyone else for their own failings (2019 - "it wasn't Corbyn or Momentum it was the media that did for us, comrade", LTNs - "it's not our fault central govt forced us"). People only ever really want two things from their politicians: accountability and accessibility and the LTN debacle has demonstrated very clearly how little there is within Southwark Labour and I think for a lot of people their patience with them has worn-out.

I always remember standing outside the Dulwich Library during the CPZ public hearing debacle when half the attendees were locked out of the meeting room and saw the way the councillors were treating and addressing the public who had turned up to have their say and it's when I first thought: hang on a minute, this isn't right. Why do they think they can behave like this, why are they talking down to everyone and ignoring people wanting to have their say?

[legalalien]

We?re getting off subject from the LTNs again, but would just like to say that while I?m a critic of the cabinet style of government and whipping arrangements that seem to be operating, my observation from watching the various meetings on YouTube is that there are still one or two Labour councillors who still seem to prioritise representing their constituents over toeing the party line and I?d put Cllr Renata Hamvas (who sometimes appears on this forum) on that list. I seem to recall her and Cllr Mills being told off by the powers that be for daring to discuss some housing issues directly with constituents without a housing department minder being present.

[kissthisguy]

My two pennorth is that it's hard for independent candidates to get traction: no 'brand awareness', history, experience. Like it or not the main parties are to one extent or another known quantities. They have activists, data and a party machine to help them. Money, too.

So for me it comes down to the point made earlier about getting representatives who represent, rather than ones who seem to be driven by dogma. The LDs can probably win a seat in ED, the Tories will almost certainly win one or both seats in DV. Of course much depends on the candidates - do they have a history of local involvement eg through volunteering etc. Plenty of people are quite rigid nationally (eg never vote Tory) but more flexible at a local level. The LTN issue is almost *the* issue of this election. Bound to be some upset.

[legalalien]

The LTN issue might be *the* issue locally, but I suspect that in other parts of the borough infill housing and the poor state of council stock may be a big factor. It will be interesting to see what happens given turnout in these elections is generally so low.

Agree that candidate selection is critical, in local elections I generally vote for the candidates rather than on a party basis, so often end up voting for candidates from different parties.

[kissthisguy]

Yes @legalalien, clumsily worded: I mean LTNs are the issue locally. Agree with you on the infill debate more widely. What both issues have in common is that they speak to a (at once nagging, now more insistent) feeling people have of a council that isn't listening and is willing to harm those who need protection / have least.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

kissthisguy Wrote:

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> The LTN issue is almost *the*

> issue of this election. Bound to be some upset.

LTNs are *the* issue for a small number of people (me included), but there are many thousands of other people for whom it's not a big deal - certainly not in comparison to education, social care, housing etc. Others who will show up and vote for whoever they always vote for. The "passion" (cough), frequency and length of posts on the EDF is not actually a good indicator of how normal people in the real world feel.

[Rockets]

DKHB - the problem for the Labour councillors in Goose Green and Dulwich Village is that their wards were some of the ones that were the closest run contests last time round in the borough. Now they have upset so many people in the area they could well be under pressure - a few hundred votes could swing it and that's the biggest problem for the councillors over LTNs - it's the last thing people will remember prior to the election as it has dragged on for so long and opposition to it has been so widespread. Add to that the fact that ahead of May we can presume all restrictions will be lifted so traffic will be back to it's congested worst on the displacement routes; this is why they are nervous.

Some tactical voting in the Dulwich Village ward and Leeming and Newens are in big trouble. It's going to be fun watching what happens.

Dulwich Village (2)

Party Candidate Votes % ?%

Labour Margy Newens 1,755 39.1

Labour Richard Leeming 1,580 35.2

Conservative Jane Lyons* 1,306 29.1

Conservative Andrew Mitchell* 1,281 28.5

Liberal Democrats Brigid Gardner 1,259 28.0

Liberal Democrats Ruth Gripper 1,124 25.0

Goose Green (3)

Party Candidate Votes % ?%

Labour Victoria Olisa 2,372 49.7

Labour James McAsh 2,042 42.8

Labour Charlie Smith* 2,039 42.7

Liberal Democrats James Barber* 1,719 36.0

Liberal Democrats Clare Donachie 1,202 25.2

Women's Equality Claire Empson 1,075 22.5