LTN Discussion

[malumbu]

Oh for goodness sake, just cut down on your motoring and use your car's smarter, and make the world a better place. You may already be doing that but it would help if all of us changed our views.

[Rockets]

Malumbu - your nirvana doesn't exist I am afraid so, in the meantime, we should probably avoid measures that don't actually make the problem worse by increaseing congestion and pollution so maybe a time for a rethink on LTNs as they seem to be roundly failing.

In addition to the One Dulwich update I would suggest people also complain about the abuse and bullying of TFL staff by council representatives/councillors - it needs to be made a matter of public record, investigated and action taken against those who were responsible for it and we need to hear from the council on what steps are being taken to ensure TFL staff can work without being abused and reduced to tears - it's utterly uncalled for.

[Rockets]

Wow...if this is correct this is the most damning evidence we have seen...but probably validates what a lot of us have been saying for a long time about the real impact of LTNs....

More evidence is emerging that LTNs are not cutting traffic – one of the main reasons for imposing them. According to an investigation by the Times, Department for Transport (DfT) figures show that vehicle miles driven rose by an average of 11.4% in the ten inner London boroughs that introduced LTNs in 2020. By contrast, in the two inner London boroughs that didn’t introduce LTNs, vehicle miles driven rose by an average of only 8.9%.

(In Southwark, which has ten LTNs, vehicle miles driven rose by 13% between 2020 and 2021.)

[exdulwicher]

Wow...if this is correct this is the most damning evidence we have seen...but probably validates what a lot of us have been saying for a long time about the real impact of LTNs....

More evidence is emerging that LTNs are not cutting traffic – one of the main reasons for imposing them. According to an investigation by the Times, Department for Transport (DfT) figures show that vehicle miles driven rose by an average of 11.4% in the ten inner London boroughs that introduced LTNs in 2020. By contrast, in the two inner London boroughs that didn’t introduce LTNs, vehicle miles driven rose by an average of only 8.9%.

(In Southwark, which has ten LTNs, vehicle miles driven rose by 13% between 2020 and 2021.)

 

It's not correct or at least, your interpretation of it isn't correct (and neither was the Times article which they later admitted).

Firstly, data gets "re-baselined" routinely anyway - sometimes due to revised statistical methodology, sometimes to accommodate new streams of data (good example being the info from Vivacity sensors which is far above the previous traffic count stuff), there are various reasons and none of it means the previous stuff was "wrong", just that it's been revised.

The data in question is DfT and is essentially estimates based on a series of actual roadside counts of the number of vehicles passing. Main road stuff is pretty straightforward but back streets (residential streets, whatever you want to call them) are much harder; some have very little traffic anyway, some have lots so accurate averages are very hard to come by and the averages themselves hide lots of extremes. The traffic counts in those places are also extremely infrequent, you simply cannot count traffic along every single road so for many roads there's gaps of years between actual counts with the rest filled in by estimates and modelling. That fact also hides info like what has happened along that road in the 10 years since you last did an actual count there - has it become an LTN, has the land use changed (say from residential to business or vice versa), has a new development been built...? Any of those would have a very significant impact on the count. Suppose you did an actual count in 2010 and then another in 2020 and found it was 50% more or 50% less traffic - the data doesn't examine WHY that happened, it simply says "twice / half the number of cars from previous count".

Cross referencing with TfL and council data (noting that the councils are responsible for most residential streets, TfL for the major roads and DfT sort of indirectly responsible at this level) and combining things like population density, walking/cycling casualty figures, schools, deprivation indices etc gives a much more complete perspective - the DfT data is simply nowhere close to enough to come to any kind of conclusion. The revised counts don't offer credible evidence that traffic *hasn't* increased, the data is simply too scarce to be used in that kind of context. It can however be combined with other info and assessed in that way. The Times did later (quietly) admit that their article made connections that couldn't be backed up.

During the height of Covid, TfL produced a Strategic Neighbourhoods Analysis which showed the potential and need for LTNs, you can see it here:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/lsp-app-six-b-strategic-neighbourhoods-analysis-v1.pdf

There's this recent study as well which is a meta-study of 800 peer-reviewed studies on traffic control in cities across Europe:

https://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/article/most-effective-ways-reducing-car-traffic

Far and away the three most effective ways to reduce traffic are congestion charging, parking controls and modal filters (LTN's / Limited Traffic Zones, they have various names).

Again, it's best to do a combination of these things, as no one control on its own is a perfect solution. In the same way that no one data set on its own is accurate...

Edit because I posted the same link twice...

[CPR Dave]

I've responded to the consultation in support of the proposals.

I'm going to egg them on to do more and more of this until there are no roads open at all anymore and then finally the scales will fall from people's eyes.

[DuncanW]

Excellent strategy!

[ab29]

Well, just wait for labour to win general election - they will ban all vehicles and pedestrians full stop. No buses, no ambulances, no delivery lorries. It will only be cyclists and eScooters :) Edited November 4, 2022 by ab29

[DuncanW]

Interesting and insightful comment.

Not long to go now :)

[ab29]

Introducing the LTN, denying its negative impact on those living outside of the closed roads, data manipulation, ignoring results of the consultation, bulling TfL staff for telling the truth, pandering to cycling lobby, pursuing Dulwich village utopia - Southwark council has moved into a parallel universe, the La La Land, where everyone cycles everywhere,

Ambulances, social care workers, NHS, blue badge holders, buses, fire brigades, pavements - none of these is needed because there is no illness, no old age, no fire, no pedestrians - everyone cycles and lives happily ever after in La La Land.

[CPR Dave]

They could have paramedics delivering patients to A and E on electric cargo bike instead of an ambulance. Why not.

[ab29]

Excellent idea :)

[Bicknell]

how to object to latest dulwich ltn plans

https://www.onedulwich.uk/news/object-to-junction-plans

still cant make petition work......

[legalalien]

They could have paramedics delivering patients to A and E on electric cargo bike instead of an ambulance. Why not.

 

Like this, you mean?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/medics-get-on-their-bikes-to-take-the-load-off-ambulances-qfc7ks5gm

[Rockets]

Come on, they need to tell us which council representative/s it was that abused TFL staff.....looks like they are trying to sweep it under the carpet...these are elected officials representing constituents and are behaving awfully.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-staff-left-upset-and-in-tears-by-abusive-southwark-council-staff-in-meeting-about-dulwich-village-ltn/

[ab29]

Yeah but who cares?

People who voted Southwark labour? - No.

People living outside of LTN / off-main roads? No.

Southwark labour Cllrs - Hell no. Not for many years to come (as long as they get their salaries). Have they ever cared ? I do not think so

[ab29]

Last chance to object – deadline 20 November

If you haven’t already done so, please object to Southwark’s plans for the Dulwich Village junction. Not only do the proposals block blue badge holders, NHS workers and carers, but Southwark’s surprise closure of Turney Road would displace traffic over a wide area. See Object to junction plans — One Dulwich and forward the link to friends, family and neighbours – there is just a week left to register your views.

Our open letter to the Leader of the Council

Southwark’s Labour manifesto promised that Labour would work with TfL to reduce traffic on main roads and make bus journeys quicker and more reliable. The Dulwich LTNs have had the opposite effect. In our open letter, we ask Cllr Kieron Williams – who is now on the board of TfL – to explain. Add your voice to ours by emailing [email protected].

Our open letter to our MP Helen Hayes

On Monday 14 November, Andy Carter, MP for Warrington South, is leading an urgent debate on LTNs in Parliament because 87% of residents affected by closures in his constituency want them scrapped. In our open letter, we are asking our MP Helen Hayes to join the debate and support Andy Carter’s call for LTNs to be taken out if local people don’t want them – reminding her that the majority has always been against the closures in Dulwich. Contact Helen by emailing [email protected].

[CPR Dave]

I wonder if it's better not to object at this point.

Presumably the only logic to closing Turney Road is to try to decrease traffic on Croxted Road.

That traffic will have to go elsewhere and it is likely to be Half Moon lane, Dulwich Village and the South circular.

Let's see what TFL have to say about the LTN's when teh South Circular is clogged up all day long.

Closing yet another road to disperse traffic from somewhere else might be the final nail in the coffin of this hair-brained game of whack-a-mole.

[ab29]

What really worries me is that they want to close off an entire Dulwivh Village plus and push all traffic onto the LL and South Circular. The latter has never been as congested as it is now.

Obviously the council will ignore the outcome of the consultation as they've done previously because they don't care. Not sure how you get your arguments through to someone who is blinded by ideology.

Edited November 16, 2022 by ab29

[Penguin68]

The squeals of pain of the posh Dulwich piglets is music to their ears - it demonstrates to their main 'constituency' that they are 'doing something' about all their 'climate issues' whilst hurting only those who are anyway most hated in most of Southwark - a win:win for them. Even if they lost Dulwich Village in 3 years time, they would still rule the roost. A price worth paying.

[Lebanums]

I would love to see their environmental impact assessment on this. It should cover surrounding areas, and should be pre changes, not post.

[ab29]

Where does it end tough? Southwark labour council is damaging environment and making peoples' lives miserable - how can this be remedied, who do we ask for help?

[malumbu]

Taking action to reduce car use surely is a good thing. Can you look beyond personal inconvenience and your dislike of the Village?

[CPR Dave]

Taking action to reduce car use is a definitely a good thing. These measures have no impact on car use and simply generate more congestion and more pollution.

Can you look beyond inconveniencing car owners and your dislike of East Dulwich?

[march46]

A reminder that monitoring data on the whole shows reduced vehicle journeys in this area since pre covid. https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/traffic-data-analysis

[Rockets]

Unless you live on East Dulwich Grove of course (the increases there are catastrophic and as a direct consequence of the closures)...and remember we were promised the LTNs would reduce traffic for all across the area and that objective has clearly not been achieved. And each time they update the dashboard it gets worse with more roads turning orange and red.....