Vegetarians

[Marmora Man]

Vegetarians are just fussy eaters.

Why should a chef in a busy restaurant make a fuss about them? You could argue that it's good customer service to do so - but it is also a distraction from the main purpose of the restaurant if it is a mainstream place offering the usual option of fish, flesh and fowl.

Vegetarians crying foul about lack of choice in local restaurants have it wrong - they are presented with exactly the same choice I am - they just choose to ignore the Lamb Fillet, Beef Steak, Pork Belly, Chicken Kiev, Duck Breast, Monkfish, Skate, Turbot, King Prawns (I could go on but I'm drooling) in favour of the one or two dishes that do not contain fish, flesh or fowl.

[ZoeG]

I've been veggie for 25 years and eat out a fair bit - you don't have a lot of choice but I can never make a decision on anything anyway so it is perfect to have just one choice. However, when I was pregnant and couldn't eat certain cheeses etc.. it was a tad difficult so I just went out for curry.

[HonaloochieB]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Vegetarians are just fussy eaters.

>

> Why should a chef in a busy restaurant make a fuss

> about them? You could argue that it's good

> customer service to do so - but it is also a

> distraction from the main purpose of the

> restaurant if it is a mainstream place offering

> the usual option of fish, flesh and fowl.

>

> Vegetarians crying foul about lack of choice in

> local restaurants have it wrong - they are

> presented with exactly the same choice I am - they

> just choose to ignore the Lamb Fillet, Beef Steak,

> Pork Belly, Chicken Kiev, Duck Breast, Monkfish,

> Skate, Turbot, King Prawns (I could go on but I'm

> drooling) in favour of the one or two dishes that

> do not contain fish, flesh or fowl.

MM you left out the Alan Partridge, 'cause that's what I'm getting a flavour of.

Chicken Kiev?

[the-e-dealer]

MM hows the Hot Dog Stall going? Who cares if a restaurant cant do veggie food the one next door will and Ill go there with my party.

[The Minkey]

I remember the days when you were lucky to be offered a cheese salad.

[the-e-dealer]

As I said a few posts ago. Omelette was the 70s and Veg Lasagna the 80s!

[Sue]

HonaloochieB Wrote:

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> Marmora Man Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Vegetarians are just fussy eaters.

> >

> > Why should a chef in a busy restaurant make a

> fuss

> > about them? You could argue that it's good

> > customer service to do so - but it is also a

> > distraction from the main purpose of the

> > restaurant if it is a mainstream place offering

> > the usual option of fish, flesh and fowl.

> >

> > Vegetarians crying foul about lack of choice in

> > local restaurants have it wrong - they are

> > presented with exactly the same choice I am -

> they

> > just choose to ignore the Lamb Fillet, Beef

> Steak,

> > Pork Belly, Chicken Kiev, Duck Breast,

> Monkfish,

> > Skate, Turbot, King Prawns (I could go on but

> I'm

> > drooling) in favour of the one or two dishes

> that

> > do not contain fish, flesh or fowl.

>

>

> MM you left out the Alan Partridge, 'cause that's

> what I'm getting a flavour of.

>

> Chicken Kiev?

xxxxxxx

Well if you go to the newly re-opened Clock House you can get a "Posh Chicken Kiev" (aka a "Crap Chicken Kiev".)

[the-e-dealer]

Anyway aren't you a bit daft if you aren't a fussy eater and eat out. "I'm not a fussy eater I will eat worms if asked to"

[CPRoadBigLunch]

western vegetarian cooking seems to be stuck in the meat-and-two-veg groove i.e the reliance on a protein dish as the main event.

Other cuisines which don't rely on meat compensate by offering inventive treatments of vegetables e.g. spicing, pickling, fermenting, and combining textures. They also rely less on the 'dish' concept and more on mix and match - the central element is usually starchy (rice, noodles, pasta, dosa) but is complemented by a range of flavours and textures to provide interest.

I fear that it may just be too difficult for your average eaterie to marry the two paradigms, hence the eternal veg lasagnas and the glut of goat's cheese tarts, although tapas does come close

[numbers]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> Findus Cheese Crispy Pancakes!

non-veggie rennet. at least in the recipe they used in the 70s.

[numbers]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Also, while there are certain clich?d veggie

> dishes such as lasagne, risotto, goats cheese

> tart, etc, after a quick glance at the websites

> for a few local restaurants, I failed to find any

> of these.

Jeremy, think people were saying that, bar the goat's cheese, those particular veggie 'staples' on a menu were from a bygone era.

actually, this thread has made me think that it's more to do with the fact that some (veggies) are satisfied with the old-skool, slightly stodgy, brand of veggie cuisine (homity pie, moussaka, lasagne, bean stew, pasta/rice based dishes) and more discerning others would like to see (also) on offer, the clean-cut ottolenghi style dishes that perhaps take a little bit more care and execution = less unimaginative stodge. I could be wrong tho.

[the-e-dealer]

THEY ARE VEGGIE.

[stacey-lyn]

Indeed, numbers.

Jeremy, here's a scenario: if you and a mate who doesn't or would rather not eat meat for whatever reason were to frequent, say, Franklins, a few times, there are 9 starters for you to choose from, there is just 1 marked (v) - I've just checked. For mains, I'm sure your friend will be sick of re-ordering the potato, courgette & Gubeen bake - you have 6 choices. Granted, The Bishop is better but other places aren't.

It's that groundhog day experience you don't seem to grasp ie the veg option is rarely changed.

Surely having a veg 'special of the day' is not a big ask and uses up any surplus - so cost effective, plus there are pantry staples such a pulses, polenta etc that have long shelf lives. If a restaurant has really good vegetables that they would use as sides, create something from those. Anyone who has an allotment can tell you about the joys of their produce.

There are superb vegetarian - often vegan - culinary traditions of southern India as others too have mentioned, for example, or the non-meat dishes of Italy. The introduction of something 'that once had a pulse' will never improve a wild mushroom risotto. There are restaurants that specialise in serving what is little more than eggs, butter and flour yet the souffl? is held in relatively high esteem and is not labelled 'vegetarian'.

What is unacceptable are veggie knock-offs of meat dishes: lousy lasagnes, chillis and roasts.

Non-meat dishes should be good because they have no meat in them, not in spite of the fact.

Chefs like Simon Rimmer get it

[the-e-dealer]

I do a lovely veg chilli. And I love a good veggie Roast. The Old Nuns Head did one but have been perverted by Goat Sadly.

[stacey-lyn]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> I do a lovely veg chilli.

everyone round at yours then the-e-dealer :)

And I love a good veggie

> Roast. The Old Nuns Head did one but have been

> perverted by Goat Sadly.

Yes, it was good.

[Jeremy]

I'm surprised the veg option is rarely changed, I'd expect a veg option in particular to be seasonal.

If I was eating with veggies then yes, they'd probably lose my custom on that occasion. Not sure if that constitues a solid business case for expanding the menu though. Losing a couple of customers now and then may be a preferable option to adding another dish onto the menu.

[stacey-lyn]

-- moved topic --

[stacey-lyn]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I'm surprised the veg option is rarely changed,

well, there you go.

> I'd expect a veg option in particular to be

> seasonal.

if only. Nothing seasonal about baked spuds, courgette and cheese.

>

> If I was eating with veggies then yes, they'd

> probably lose my custom on that occasion. Not sure

> if that constitues a solid business case for

> expanding the menu though. Losing a couple of

> customers now and then may be a preferable option

> to adding another dish onto the menu.

oh dear :( pointless.

[Annette Curtain]

Last night I ate at Bruno Loubet's new place The Grain Store in Kings X

Very veg orientated and friggin good/innovative too.

There are meat options, but not hugely based around it.

*Like*

[DaveR]

"The introduction of something 'that once had a pulse' will never improve a wild mushroom risotto"

If you order this in Italy I'd reckon there is a better than 50% chance it has been made with chicken or veal stock. I know there are more vegetarians now in Italy than before, but (I'm told) it's still a very difficult place to eat out if you are a proper veggie. Much more so than the UK.

[the-e-dealer]

NO Italians are very good at producing true veggie food and a lot of their traditional dishes are Veggie.They are far better than the useless Brits!

[RosieH]

Patently untrue. Risotto made with chicken stock, parmesan made with animal rennet, wine made with isinglass or gelatin.

Not "true" veggie food.

[DaveR]

There is no tradition of vegetarian food as a concept in Italy AFAIK, but there are lots of dishes based around vegetables due either to the historic poverty of the populace or the desire to eat very good produce simply. However, even those recipes often include animal produce of some sort, because if it was available it would always be used.

An Italian friend told me that his grandparents used to tell a story about how every family had a smoked fish hanging from an oil lamp. If they has nothing else to eat they would rub bread or polenta against the fish (which the heat of the lamp kept oily) so that it would have a bit of extra flavour. They may not have eaten much (or any) meat, but it wasn't because they were 'true' vegetarians.

[the-e-dealer]

Best Veggie Food in the World in Italy.

http://www.travelbelles.com/2011/07/visiting-italy-vegetarian/

[DaveR]

As a vegetarian you can undoubtedly eat very well in Italy

But (getting back to the point of this thread) in an average restaurant in Italy you won't find any 'vegetarian options' i.e. dishes that are specifically guaranteed to be free of meat derived products to satisfy vegetarian customers (although that is changing). There will be plenty of dishes that are in fact meat-free, just because that's how they are made, but it would be wrong to assume that mushroom risotto (which was the example given) will have been made with veg stock.

Anyway, it doesn't make any sense to me to criticise the menu at Franklins, say, by saying 'look at Italian food". If you want to eat Italian, go to an Italian restaurant.