"wow, she's pretty for a black girl"

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

James - so you think when black offenders get sent to prison more readily and for longer sentences than white offenders for the same offences, the judge might think, "oh, that white man might be gay, let me treat him as badly as I treat the black man I just sent down" or when applying for a job the CV of the person with the surname Patel or Nwoke will end up in the bin right next to the white but Gay James Smith?

I don't think so.

I will fight against any prejudice, including prejudice based on sexual orientation, race and class, but don't try to tell me that there is less prejudice against non-whites than there is against gay men in this country because it's just not true.

[bignumber5]

Quite telling how you're all clambouring to attack me as you attempt to look the most pc. Pretty much proves my point really!

Not to attack you, James. And not to look the most pc.

No one is disagreeing with you because you are gay, they are disagreeing with you because they feel that you, James, one man, without reference to your sexual orientation, are wrong. Ssying that we are victimising you in this situation because you are gay smacks of Ali G and the "is it cos I is black?" defence.

If not being yielded to on every opinion that you express is something that you see as an attack on your sexuality, then I can't help thinking that you are failing to take responsibility for yourself and your interactions as James rather than James-a-gay-man.

Just to be clear, my last post was disagreeing with you, James, about the one issue under discussion. It is not a declaration that gay men aren't entitled to opinions. I am not oppressing you for your sexuality, and you are not my victim - we are 2 people with different opinions having a discussion, yes?

[James]

I'm so glad that all these straight people know so much about what it's like to be gay. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

You illustrate my point beautifully: there's no way you would patronise a black person on this forum as you are patronising me.

But then, coming from (among others) someone who masquerades as a chav in order to be provocative, what did I expect?

[missd]

the issue i have here is that james you came on to this post with the following message:

"I do sympathise, however it's probably not quite as bad as having a group of local kids shout out "faggot", "battyman" etc. at me and my partner as we waited for a train a couple of years ago. "

you know what? this post isnt about you - muffintop came on here to rant about comments she had heard about her. i don't think you were particularly sensitive in coming on here saying "well that's all very well but what they said doesn't hurt as much as what someone else said to me two years ago..."

i'm not saying that what those idiots said to you was right (of course it wasn't) however to just pile on here and hijack muffintop's post and take it on a toally different tangent isn't on.

[KoolBananas]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm so glad that all these straight people know so

> much about what it's like to be gay. Thanks for

> sharing your expertise.

>

James assumptions are a terrible thing. Just because most of "us" (forumites?) may not choose parade around like yourself declaring ourselves to be gay/bi/male/female/pink blue or green it doesnt mean that we are not. Get off your high horse, open your eyes and step out side of your VERY small box! Failing that just shut the hell up and stop insulting others with your pathetic and rather boring comments! (6)

[James]

Oh come on, it's hardly like she's going into counselling! Get a grip...

[Moos]

James, you normally seem like such a nice guy and such a smart poster. Can I suggest you take a deep breath and read the thread from the beginning? I honestly think you've got the wrong end of the stick, and need to step back.

[James]

Thanks Moos for your kind words.

However I do think if the roles were reversed and I mentioned a casual homophobic remark overheard on a bus, then someone came onto a forum and said "Well I do sympathise but I have been racially abused in the street" we wouldn't be having this argument. It's all very telling!

Just to remind people I deplore both racism and homophobia equally.

But just as society is a bit further ahead at tackling sexism than it is racism, so it's a bit further ahead tackling racism than homophobia.

That's not to say that racism isn't still a problem. Of course it is. My boyfriend has been a victim of racial abuse too.

But he agrees that the homophobia he has suffered has been worse because it is deemed more 'acceptable' by society. You only have to open the pages of a tabloid newspaper to understand that. Only the other day the Sun was shrieking about the fact that a supposedly straight contestant from Big Brother was seen in a gay club.

The days of the sun being overtly racist towards black and Asian people are (thankfully) behind us (but Roma people and Muslims may think otherwise!) however casual homophobia is still ok.

[muffintop]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh come on, it's hardly like she's going into

> counselling! Get a grip...

Wow that was nice James, I'm sorry, I hope someone offers you as much understanding one day as you have personally expressed on here with regards to my situation, there is no doubt in my mind that you view racist verbal attacks as nothing more than "flippant remarks!"

"I do sympathise with Muffintop to some degree"

Stop being so angry and get a grip (I have, you won't hear me mentioning this 2 years down the line!) .

[Moos]

James, I hope you're wrong about what people would say if the roles were reversed, and I hope you'd get the same treatment Muffintop has received. I do see your point about 'slightly subtle' homophobic comments in the media.

But when I say you've got the wrong end of the stick, what I meant was that I think most people who have responded to your comment have been responding to the context and not the content. It's not necessarily about turning the debate into racism vs homophobia (and no-one has said either is anything other than deplorable) but about perhaps unintentionally redirecting a thread about a recent event to make it about something to do with you. Your original post read as 'Get over yourself, it's worse for me' (although I'm sure it wasn't intended to be unkind, and mine is a crude rendition). So regardless of whether it's true - and I don't know - it came across as insensitive. So I don't think anyone was having a go at you because you're gay or because they under-rate homophobia, but because of the context of your comment.

Anyway. That's my two penn'orth. Peace to all.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

James - you have done wonders for gay rights. Keep it up.

[James]

>>there is no doubt in my mind that you view racist verbal attacks as nothing more than "flippant remarks!

Um, no actually. My partner has suffered nasty verbal racial abuse on a number of occasions.. If this is the worst you've heard you have been comparatively fortunate!

>>James - you have done wonders for gay rights. Keep it up.

If you can't see the irony here, words fail me

[muffintop]

James, just to make a point I will reveal that personally I am bi-sexual, not that you and all the rest of the people on this forum really needed to know that, but what the heck! I happen to know that quite a few "fully" gay people look down on us "bi's" as being the lowest of the low as apparently we don't know whether we are "arthur or martha", but you don't hear me harping on about it. Anyway, that is another whole new can of worms and doesn't really have much to do with this current discussion other than to try and express the fact that I know what both sides of most fences feel like and how it feels to be personally attacked.

Muffintop has left the building....(swishes huge long mac around bod and flounces out)

[KoolBananas]

Shake ya thang girl! ;-)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Oppression comes in many forms, and the 'i'm more of a victim than you' mentality only serves to divide and conquer us.

[jumpinjackflash]

..Do what you wanna do

I can't tell you how to catch a groove

It's your thang, Do what you wanna do

I won't tell you who to sock it to

[jumpinjackflash]

er, that was meant to follow on from Kool Banana's post.. :-$

[muffintop]

Lol! at Jumping Jack Flash ;-)

[James]

God, those bisexuals are grumpy aren't they? What's their problem!? :))

[muffintop]

Lol at James :)-D

[KoolBananas]

::o James u have a sense of humour!!! My God wots come over you?! ;-)

[Moos]

:))

funny man

[muffintop]

My God wots come over you?!

Now now, aren't we lowering the tone of the EDF forum dear! >:D<

(Apologies, couldn't resist that one

[KalamityKel]

lol I'm sure KB had intended a bit of innuendo there as well and I'm sure you will be whole heartedly forgiven ;-) hehe

[Keef]

Nice to see everyone smiling, and now time for a more general conversation on the subject...

But just as society is a bit further ahead at tackling sexism than it is racism, so it's a bit further ahead tackling racism than homophobia

This was much the point that caught my attention yesterday, and as ???? said, there is probably some truth to it.

The thing that made me think was how the likes of Graham Norton (I know a lot of gay people are not fans, but bare with me) have been taken in to the hearts of many people, and gone all prime time. There is also usually a lovable gay character in the BB household or other realiity shows.

Now, I know this makes no difference to the "man on the street", but my point is that in this culture of Heat Magazine, celebrity and WAGs, gay people, especially the flamboyant type are welcomed with open arms. I don't think the same can really be said for black people.

Discuss.