Pre school requires 3.5 yr old to wipe own bum (no2)

[littlemissindulgence]

We have just had a visit form two teachers from a local pre school who mentioned that the boys and girls will all have to be able to wipe their own bums after a number 2. This is due to...gues what... Health and safety.

My jaw dropped as I don't really want my little girl to be wiping her own as I consider that something for older girls. We have tried and it got EVERYWHERE....

The teachers are allowed to tell them what to do - fat lot of help that will be. Is it just me or is this ridiculous? The thought of her having to do this is no less worrying than the kids who will be doing it and 'forget' to wash their hands afterwards. Is this not a greater safely and health hazard?

Is it me or is this just taking health and safety a step too far once again?

[Curmudgeon]

If she is toilet trained she should be capable of wiping her own bottom so now is the time to be teaching her in my opinion

Get toilet wipes and teach her this independent skill I'm sure you can get tips on how to do it if you want

If not then she isn't ready for pre-school - that's not to say they won't help if necessary, all little ones have accidents

[squirrel23]

Agree with Curmudgeon..

[damzel]

I don't agree at all. My 5yo still gets it everywhere if it's not solid and it results in UTIs as it sits where it shouldn't all day. Boys are not so much of a problem but it is hard for a little girl with not so long arms, to reach around the back so it's incredibly difficult to go front-to-back from the front (if you see what I mean).

What's not "health and safety" about rubber gloves that nurseries usually use?

Although having said that, if this is a school "nursery" i.e. your 15 free hours in an actual school - then as they are teachers and not nursery staff, it is different. After starting my little girl in the school nursery at about the same age, after one week we decided that she would be better in a normal nursery, due to her not being completely ready with regards to toileting and cleaning herself. It was too stressful for all concerned.

[Pickle]

I remember being surprised by this, but it spurred me on to teach the kids how to do it properly. This opened up a new world for me that didn't involve hearing "Mummmmmeeeeeeee, I've done a poo, wipe my bottom please" many times a day, can't say I miss that part of parenting!

[Curmudgeon]

She can go front to back from the back

[Belle]

I was worried about this at school nursery stage, but actually the teachers told me not to worry - never got to the bottom (sorry!) of whether they'd do it or not (I think what they meant was they would give help where it was needed but not exactly offer it), but as it happened I think in the whole year he was there he probably never even needed it! It was only 3 hours and he just seemed to not go while he was there (other than for wees obviously). In fact it's only this summer we've sorted it in anticipation of school. Last year I was definitely in the 'it's just easier if I do it' camp so I feel for you.

[Monkey]

I think it's hard for little ones that age. My four year old has not mastered it yet so don't beat yourself up. Not looking forward to the next upset tummy! Dunno what to suggest apart from practising, which we will be doing ths weekend!

[bluesuperted]

I think this does massively depend on *TMI* consistency.... There is no way my 3yo could do a good job even with training - his poo (for no medical reason, I've had it checked!!) is very sloppy. I use about 5/6 wipes when cleaning him. He could do a cursory wipe but I'm really hoping it hardens up before school starts in a year!

Incidentally I think he won't go at nursery for reasons Belle states - but I have checked (school nursery) and they have said they have gloves and will clean him if required - I explained the consistency issue and they were fine and understood.

[bodsier]

Perhaps with some training at home, and supervision whilst she does it she will be able to master it before too long. It's not too young really in my opinion, they can do so much more than we think.

[nunheadmum]

Could this be that the nursery are saying the worst case option (i.e. we can't do it) to ensure that parents encourage their kids to learn but in reality, if a kid has a really messy one, they will help? I guess they don't want to be doing it every time for all the kids. But surely they don't really want kids with messy bottoms sitting about all day?

Maybe other parents with kids at the nursery currently could advise?

[Saffron]

I thought schools/nurseries weren't allowed to exclude on the basis of toileting issues, b/c it's a form of discrimination. Children develop different abilities at different ages of course.

Aren't they obligated to find reasonable ways to accommodate children who require additional help with toileting?

[keane]

No, if its a regular primary school they don't help with toilet atall well not in nursery at my children's school. If they don't or can't wipe properly they just come back with poo everywhere. Personally I think there should be some help offered as they are only 3!

I remember losing the plot one day when my son was in reception on a school trip & another child had an accident in her pants & the teachers & assistants weren't prepared to clean her up. She would have stayed with poo in her pants for the rest of the trip had I not volunteered to get her cleaned up with wipes I had with me and disposed of pants in bin and put trousers back on (luckily she was wearing trousers) & reassured & comforted her, then I rang the mum who I knew, to let her know that child had had accident & had all been dealt with. When I took it up with the school health & safety was the reason given for their non intervention - world gone mad in my opinion..

[Saffron]

keane Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No, if its a regular primary school they don't

> help with toilet atall well not in nursery at my

> children's school. If they don't or can't wipe

> properly they just come back with poo everywhere.

> Personally I think there should be some help

> offered as they are only 3!

> I remember losing the plot one day when my son was

> in reception on a school trip & another child had

> an accident in her pants & the teachers &

> assistants weren't prepared to clean her up. She

> would have stayed with poo in her pants for the

> rest of the trip had I not volunteered to get her

> cleaned up with wipes I had with me and disposed

> of pants in bin and put trousers back on (luckily

> she was wearing trousers) & reassured & comforted

> her, then I rang the mum who I knew, to let her

> know that child had had accident & had all been

> dealt with. When I took it up with the school

> health & safety was the reason given for their non

> intervention - world gone mad in my opinion.

I would dispute that last bit very strongly if I were the parent of the child who had a toileting accident. Leaving a child in his/her own faeces is a form of neglect, and should be reported as such. This is also a health issue for other children (and staff!) who are then exposed to faecal contamination.

Schools may balk, but they are obligated to find ways to deal with these issues. If we just accept it as 'normal', nothing will ever change.

[bodsier]

I agree with Saffron, it's a contradiction on both health and safety reasons. By their safety I presume it protects the staff against accusations of abuse. How can it be ok for them to allow A parent to change the child. My understanding is that the school should notify the parent that an accident has occurred, and the parent consent to their child being changed or something along those lines.

[Cora]

I would be very surprised if they were allowed to discriminate like this. I am pretty sure, as saffron says, they are obliged to work with each child's needs.

[littlemissindulgence]

Thanks for all your views and shares of experiences. Much appreciated!

I will slowly train her to learn how to wipe properly, starting from tomorrow, but will urge her also to refrain from going for a no 2 at school. I'm hoping she will be able to wait until she gets home...

It feels like she is growing up so fast already, having this issue just makes it even more real.

Thanks again.

[hpsaucey]

littlemissindulgence Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks for all your views and shares of

> experiences. Much appreciated!

>

> I will slowly train her to learn how to wipe

> properly, starting from tomorrow, but will urge

> her also to refrain from going for a no 2 at

> school. I'm hoping she will be able to wait until

> she gets home...

>

> It feels like she is growing up so fast already,

> having this issue just makes it even more real.

>

> Thanks again.

Hi there - I think its unreasonable to expect them all to be toilet trained and able to wipe properly at this age.As someone said - they all learn at different speeds and at different ages. I guess it depends how they deal with this all in practice at the school.

That said it might not be a good idea to start a child thinking about holing it in. It can quickly become a habit. My son's always been reluctant to poo at school. He sometimes suffers from hard stools and constipation as a consequence - see this snippet from the web here:

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/encopresis.html#

'There's a wide range of normal when it comes to having a BM. The frequency of BMs varies with a person's age and individual nature. "Normal" pooping might range from one or two BMs per day to only three or four per week. Some kids don't poop on a regular basis, but a child who passes a soft BM without difficulty every 3 days is not constipated. However, a child who passes a hard BM (small or large) every other day is. Other kids may go every day, but they only release little, hard balls and there's always poop left behind in the rectum.

So, what causes the hard poop in the first place? Any number of things, including diet, illness, decreased fluid intake, fear of the toilet during toilet teaching, or limited access to a toilet or a toilet that's not private (like at school). Some kids may develop chronic constipation after stressful life events such as a divorce or the death of a close relative. Whatever the cause, once a child begins to hold his or her BMs, the poop begins to accumulate in the rectum and may back up into the colon and a vicious cycle begins.'

[Anna27]

It wasn't until my little boy started nursery school that we also discovered this, I thought it was a bit odd. I told him to tell one of the teachers when he needed a poo, although they couldn't help they kept wipes in the cupboard so he always asked for a wipe. He was never as clean as I would have liked, he was one of the youngest too. No major disasters using this system, one of his teachers became his 'poo buddy' she though it was quite funny.

I'm all for them learning but if they have an accident someone needs to step in! They would however get them changed if clothes were wet or soiled. He's just started school and we have had a few wetting himself incidents that have gone unnoticed, he gets too involved in playing to stop and go, I have asked the teachers to remind him, their still young, completely agree sitting in wee or poo part of the day is more unhygienic!

[Pickle]

I seriously doubt that a school nursery would leave a child sitting in soiled clothes. I remember picking my kids up and seeing parents being given bags with dirty clothes in them, and the staff were really supportive and lovely with the little ones.

[Saffron]

Yay, it seems crazy doesn't it? Particularly shocked at Keane's post about the school trip accident! My LO is still in nursery, but this is definitely something we'll be asking about when we look at reception/primary schools for next year.

[Crokes]

Agree with saffron's posts too (Saffron, you talk a lot of sense... ever thought of going into politics?!).

We were offered a place in a school nursery that said children needed to be toilet trained (including poo) and that a parent would be called if there was an accident/problem where the child needed cleaning up.

Better than the child being left to it, but still makes a big deal out of it, so we declined the nursery place (We were lucky to have an alternative that worked for us and didn't have a problem with poos!).

[ClareC]

I suspect this is down to the individual school policy / procedures.

Both of my two are at pre school nursery. We moved out to Kent where the places are available the September after they are 2 rather than 3 hence both being there the same time. My youngest is a May birthday so not that long out of nappies when he started in September. He has had an accident since starting and the staff were fine, I was just given a bag with soiled pants / trousers to take home.

Some children are still in nappies, their parents just send nappies etc with them each day.