The Man with 20 kids BB1 Monday night

[NatashaD]

I don't usually watch this type of programme ,but I couldn't switch off. It's why I am so knackered this morning. That poor toddler crawling over the dinner table in just a nappy and picking food off the others' plates.

The nine year old girl who was accused of stealing and said "yeh - but only from shops, not from family" - as if that justified it.

The two "friends" who were supposed to keep an eye on the family whilst dad was in prison were next to useless. In fact they were worse than useless as all they did was sit around drinking and smoking. I know this kind of thing is heavily edited but the BBC's remit is to avoid stereotyping and represent as fairly as is possible.

I did find it quite ironic that the boys had been out stealing copper pipes and boilers and that the reason the family had no water was that their water pipes had been stolen!

The mother was portrayed in such a bad light - sitting and smoking as her world fell apart and the kids turned feral. Although to be fair she was probably suffering from severe depression.

I had to keep reminding myself that this was a real family, and an example of the white underclass which is now welfare dependent. I was outraged that the family clear almost ?30,000 PA tax free, yet the kids were sleeping 4 to a filthy mattress, while the father wheeled crates of Strongbow cider back to his revolting hovel.

This maybe a contraversial comment but I believe families like this should have their benefits stopped if they have more than, say 2 kids. WHy should the STate finance these feckless types?

If you didn't see this programme go watch it on the BBC website. It is compellingly gripping, and horrifying to boot.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I watched it this morning and while aspects of it horrified me, the overwhelming message I got was how important it is to have a father in the family. Even though he was alcoholic, inept, etc, the impact on the family while he was in prison was amazing, particularly on the boys.

[NatashaD]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00cl893

[lozzyloz]

PGC. I agree kids need fathers ... and mothers. Well maybe just parents or at least one or two people (or more) that care, educate and protect the kids. So perhaps it doesn't really matter what the sex is, just as long as that somebody fulfils that role and preferably not the state in the absence of.

NatashaD, are you suggesting means testing before you have children?

[peckhamboy]

I think she's suggesting responsible parenting - ie don't have kids you can't afford. Obviously this family is an extreme example, but bringing up 20 kids purely on benefits comes across as an abuse of the system. I hadn't realised that epilepsy and alcoholism qualified you for disability benefits before last night, either.

[clive3300]

The apparently well-meaning welfare state has distorted society to the point where this sort of rolling disaster is actually a viable economic unit.

[Ant]

I blame central heating. Just think of the money that family could have made sweeping chimneys.

[lozzyloz]

...and swiping your Nintendo!

[Keef]

I actually agree with NatashaD & Peckhamboy here. I am all for the wellfare state, but come on!!!!

Also, the abuse of disability benefits is a huge problem, work dodging pikey feckers! (normally I wouldn't come over that strong, but on that particular issue, I have issues!)

[MadWorld74]

I was so fecking outraged at the show, I was seething but couldn't turn off. I went to bed very very angry.

Having been out of work and on the dole many years ago, I know how the 'State' can treat you as nothing more than a piece of sh*t that they stepped in on their way to work. Time and time again I desperatly needed help with housing and money (becuase I had no one else to go to for help, so before you all ask why?....the DHSS was my very, very last port of call), and time and time again they passed me through their paper trail and I came out the end with nothing more than depression and self loathing.

So why please dear God, tell me, how can this low-life of a 'father' who sang nursery rhymes about Strongbow with his tiny daughter....get away with this blatant daylight robbery?

'I can't work because I'm an alcoholic'........I feel off the sofa at that point, weeping.

He was raising a whole future generation of feckless, feral youth all under one roof!

[HonaloochieB]

If you think of it as a reality version of Shameless, can't you see the funny side?

[MadWorld74]

No, it's a bloody terrifying thing to behold. Those kids are our next generationS with a capital 'S'.

There aint nothing funny about that.

[Keef]

I didn't actually see the programme last night, but have seen a thing on telly about him before. He has made himself this kind of celebrity that everybody loves to hate! Kind of like that thug who won the lottery a few years back, and loves to give the one finger salute to any photographer who will look.

Annoyingly he probably got a good fee for the programme.

If he claims incapacity on the grounds that he is alcoholic, he should be forced to have treatment, or have his money stopped!

[MadWorld74]

yeah exactly Keef.....surely after telling everyone about his 'illness' the benefit fraud dept should give him a visit and establish why he is 'ill' and then get him 'better' again so he can repay the tens of housands he's got out of the state since he was having children at the age of....what was it....15 or something?

[NatashaD]

clive3300, you are quite right in saying "The apparently well-meaning welfare state has distorted society to the point where this sort of rolling disaster is actually a viable economic unit."

This abysmal father said it wasn't worth him working unless he cleared ?500+ a week, which is what he currently receives in social security benefits. It is a big fault in the system that allows people like this to carry on breeding, and using tax payers' money to finance their addictions. This particular father also breezily stated that he wouldn't mind having another child, as it would mean he could add another tattoo to his repulsive body.

MadWorld and Keef I am not surprised you share my sense of horror. The kids should go into care. At least, in a care home, they wouldn't be sitting on the lap of an inebriated buffoon as he sings to the tune of Barry Mannilow's "Mandy" .."Oh Strongbow....etc"....I mean..........

[Ant]

Still, give him some credit. At least he waited until the kids were "three... five, six months old" until he smoked in the same room as them.

*sigh*

[NatashaD]

Yes Ant. 'Mike' had the gall to express his disdain that the women were puffing away in front of the babies, loftily asserting that he at least waited until they were a bit older. (LOL, if it wasn't so tragic.)

The family dog had a lucky escape being dumped on the road and conveniently 'forgotten' about.

Mike needs to be castrated. I would do it gladly. Pass me a pair of scissors.

[david_carnell]

I guess this coincides nicely with David Cameron's assertion today/yesterday that those who are alcoholics/drug addicts/obese/poor etc only have themselves to blame.

Personally of course, I think he's a sanctimonious toss-pot who wouldn't know economic hardship and community disintegration if it bit him on his aristocratic arse. And as a member of a political party who did it's best to destroy industries & communities that for decades had supported the working-classes he should probably refrain from highlighting the problems this has caused for future societies.

Of course once we have these fat/poor/brutish people castrated Britain shall once again return to its glorious past. In the meantime if we could all point, laugh and sneer at the feckless it would be much appreciated.

[DaveR]

This is what Cameron said:

?We talk about people being ?at risk of obesity? instead of talking about people who eat too much and take too little exercise,? he said. ?We talk about people being at risk of poverty, or social exclusion: it?s as if these things ? obesity, alcohol abuse, drug addiction ? are purely external events like a plague or bad weather.

?Of course, circumstances ? where you are born, your neighbourhood, your school and the choices your parents make ? have a huge impact. But social problems are often the consequence of the choices people make.?

Do you disagree?

[Brendan]

Am I the only person who thinks that the benefit/housing system is a kind of oppression?

[DaveR]

The benefit/housing system is intended to function as a safety net but instead provides huge disincentives to individuals to get out of it. It also arguably has done a lot more to undermine communities than any particular political idea/policy (see above) - after all, why give a t@ss about your neighbours when everything you have is provided by the 'social'?

[david_carnell]

Do you disagree?

Yes...to an extent.

Whilst I appreciate, that I, as a well educated, nutritionally aware, middle-class male with a stable, well paid job and a support network consisting of similar would merely be being greedy if I continually stuffed my face with cream pies, I do not agree that others are as fortunate as I am and can be pointed at and mocked like those chimps in zoos who smoke cigarettes.

And his argument is illogical:

Social problems do have a huge influence in some situations ---> These social problems are caused by individuals -----> These inidividuals suffer from social problems ------> These social problems are caused by individuals ad infinitum

[david_carnell]

why give a t@ss about your neighbours when everything you have is provided by the 'social'?

Why should I give a t@ss about my neighbours(hood) when I only rent a property? Err, maybe because I'm a decent member of society, much like many of those living in council accomodation.

Edited for poor spelling suggesting people living in conical houses (?) don't care for their neighbourhoods.

[SeanMacGabhann]

The programme was made, essentially to provoke this kind of reaction - it's like the 2 minute hate in Orwell's 1984. You feel superior to him now?? - great, have a pat on the back

People like this idiot do not make up anything like enough of the population to be anything other than an irritating minor worry. If he can cadge that much money from social security and intelligent, unemployed people can't get their's, then there is obviously a cunning at work somewhere

If I could cadge that much from the state , I'd be tempted to have a go myself. I'm not going to stand up for any of the decisions he has made but if he has a "f*** you" attitude, it's not confined to him or people like him. He's costing the taxpayer money, and the environment plenty with his 20 kids - but look at the hordes of better off people who have several cars in a driveway (to pick one example) - point out the waste and cost to others and it's a similar attitude. Better dressed and more articulate maybe, but no less disinterested in his/her fellow man.

If the state were to "encourage" him to work, cut down on his alcohol, bring his kids up differently, would those that cry "nanny-state" normally, see the irony?

None of this stops the following from being hilarious mind you

[DaveR]

Come off it d_carnell, that's just the kind of cr@p that Cameron is talking about. Are you seriously suggesting that if you are not a

"well educated, nutritionally aware, middle-class male with a stable, well paid job and a support network consisting of similar"

then you don't know that eating pies makes you fat?

As for the neighbour/hood point, if by paying benefits and providing housing centrally you effectively remove interdependence from communities then you also remove a powerful incentive for people to respect and look out for each other. You mentioned rental properties - go look at some and compare them with owner-occupied places. It's all about responsibility, decisions and consequences - exactly Cameron's point.