The death of a fox cub (Lounged)

[SeanMacGabhann]

One doesn't have to be "let's all be friends and never have any differences" to wonder why things have to become so polarised

Madworld - you posted quite a moving story about an experience I wouldn't like to go through. I often watch fox cubs play in the back of the house from the upstairs window and they can look cute so I'm not completely at odds with you

That said - the world (by which I mean nature - not just man-made world) is infinitely vicious. By the time we get to lunch today millions of creatures will have perished through climate, predators or hunger. We have to have some steel just to get through the day. And much as I can look at foxes and think "ahh bless" - a "much loved" British cretaure they ain't. They are growing in numbers in urban areas and are ever-more bold and brazen. Basically, vermin. Disease ridden vermin. The points being made against you are possibly a little cold but no less true for that - we need to control the population of mice, rats, foxes etc. You seem on-board with some of these creatures but not others so it seems fair to ask "what's the difference?"

[Michael Palaeologus]

I think that this illustrates the rather odd perspective that the (mostly urban based) British have towards animals. We do tend to sentimentalise the cuddly, not so the less-cuddly.

Nobody wishes to see dumb animals suffer, but it is true to say that there is no difference between a fox cub and a rat They are both mammals that feel pain and distress and have some awareness of impending doom. They are both essentially rural animals that now live in an alien urban environment bringing them into contact with urban humans that nowadays have little experience of the realities of death in the natural world. Foxes and rats cause humans problems in various ways.

To take pleasure in the pain of another creature is obscene (Pierre please take note), but death, and often unpleasant (as opposed to pleasant?) death is the reality that wild animals live in.

[Annasfield]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Mr P. It always amazes me when you hear peoples' views on fox hunting (for example), who have no idea about rural life and the impact that one solitary fox can have on a farm.

MadWorld - I can empathise with you entirely and it most have been absolutely horrendous. I'm not taking away from that and think that some people could have been a little more sensitive in their posts. That said, I can understand some of the opinions I just don't necessarily agree with the way in which they were expressed.

[Jeremy]

I understand the trauma of having a baby animal die in your garden, I would also be upset if it happened. But saying that... looking at it objectively, and from a purely logical perspective - why should we get so upset over the death of a fox, when we don't mind seeing other animals killed?

Fox cubs may be cute, but foxes spread disease, and can attack other animals (some of which are nowhere near as propsperous as foxes, and need protection).

[SeanMacGabhann]

Re: Fox Hunting

See that's where I draw the line. I'm no saboteur but there is a surely a difference between having to kill pests and having waaaaaay to much fun doing it. I have never sat up all night with a bunch of mates and a crate of beers all for the sake of a mouse-hunt. Or have I just talked myself into doing that very thing!??

[Ms T]

I am so sorry to hear about your sad experience with the fox cub. Please be assured that there are many people, like myself, who totally empathise with your feelings.

[Keef]

RE: Hunting, what Sean said.

[cdonline]

I would probably be feeling shaken if I'd have experienced what you saw. Well, except for the fact that I would have been inside the house, behind the sofa with my ipod at full blast, waiting for the RSPCA or somebody else to deal with it.

I love seeing foxes pottering around these streets, that is until they come within 20 feet and then I'm a complete wreck, screaming and trying to shoo the mangey things away.

Some of the comments above may not be terribly sympathetic, but as I've never had the inclination to bond and get to know them individually, hey ho. Am I the only one who raises an eyebrow at the very thought of a Charity calling themselves the Fox Project?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Mr P. It always amazes me when you hear peoples' views on fox hunting (for example), who have no idea about rural life and the impact that one solitary fox can have on a farm.

Like you by the sound of it if you honestly believe "The Hunt" is an effective way of controlling the rural fox population. Fox Hunting was nothing more than neo-feudalism in rural areas and most people were pleased to see the back of it.

[Brendan]

Oh christ here we go.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Most people in the cities were glad to see the back of fox hunting precisely because of the complete lack of understanding of the rural economy and life that D-P-Fairy exemplifies.

The banning of fox hunting by the Labour Party left was primarily an act of a class war that has long since been discredited and that has no relevance to fox hunting.

I am no supporter of the Tories, but I believe that they have undertaken to remove the ban of fox hunting and so relieve the rural population of one example of urban oppression.

[DaveR]

Fox = cute, rat = vermin

Fully grown animal = pest

Baby animal = Bambi

Poisoning/shooting/trapping fox OK, hunting fox old-style not (because you enjoy it?)

Rational thought has left the building....

[SeanMacGabhann]

Urban do good ers. . They will be after up badger baiters next.

[Pierre]

To take pleasure in the pain of another creature is obscene (Pierre please take note)

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I'd take pleasure in the pain of another creature. That's very far from the truth.

Unless you're implying I'm trying to cause MadWorld74 pain, in which case I'm certainly not; I feel sad for his / her upset and wouldn't wish anyone to see an animal die in pain. I was just providing a counter-argument along the lines of "any fool could have seen that cashpoint was rigged"... ;)

: P

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I met a lovely chap on Peckham Rye on Sunday morning. He was on his ex-racehorse which he hunts in Somerset.

He said when he first went to the country he was treated with an awful lot of hostility and suspicion as one of them Londoners who wanted to interfere with their way of life. Interesting to see how they view us townies.

[Geo]

Very sad :(

but well done with your attempts to rescue the wee cub, you went out of your way to ensure its safety and althougt it died you did what was right.

[MadWorld74]

Thanks Geo for your thoughts.

And to those who have mentioned hunting, I really, really don't want to start getting involved in that debate.

Cheers.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Most people in the cities were glad to see the back of fox hunting precisely because of the complete lack of understanding of the rural economy and life that D-P-Fairy exemplifies.

Err Michael, I can "out-countryside" most people on this forum. I however come from a poor rural area where the Fox Hunts were despised for the damage they caused to small-holdings, and the arrogance of the participants. Have you ever seen the damage a pack of 40 dogs and 20 horses will do to a small farm?

Regardless of this, anyone who says fox hunting is about population control is either lying, or insane. When they dig up dens at the beginning of a hunt and find cubs, or a pregnant vixen, do you know what the standard practice is?

[Marmora Man]

I am no supporter of the Tories, but I believe that they have undertaken to remove the ban of fox hunting and so relieve the rural population of one example of urban oppression.

This is a sensible posotion for the next Government to take - regardless of party persuasion.

Fox hunting doesn't control foxes particularly well and probably few, if any, living in the country would argue it does. Hunting a wild animal whose track, random actions and reactions cannot be predicted while on the back of half a ton of horse, jumping over hedge and ditches, riding fast through woods and countryside - often in wet and slippery conditions is an adrenaline rush to compare with being at sea in a storm, abseiling off a high cliff, game fishing, bungee jumping and other extreme sports. It is not for all but - as ever - the libertarian in me opposed the ban which was, as MP stated, an act of class war and a sop to elements of the Labour Party that allowed Tony Blair to get on with his other agenda without too much back bench hssle.

[Michael Palaeologus]

"When they dig up dens at the beginning of a hunt and find cubs, or a pregnant vixen, do you know what the standard practice is?" - Whatever it is it will end up in death, I presume you are referring to throwing the foxes to the pack - a horrible but swift end. Much the same end that Foxes dish out to chickens. Nature red in tooth and claw. Your small Farmer may wish to reflect on this as he makes good the devastation caused by the hunt as they poured tornado-like through his perfect Cider With Rosie small holding. He may even have to repaint the white picket fence.

Lets stop endowing wild animals with human sensibilities. Its nasty, its horrible, its nature. Next time Mr Tibbles brings in a dead mouse in to you as a present reflect upon the terror of the last few seconds of Jerry's life as your lovely companion played with him with his be-clawed paws.

The major environmental problems that we have are caused by mankind's complete dislocation from the natural world and so from reality.

So you anti-hunt people not only are you personally responsible for rural poverty but also for global warning, rising sea levels, Tsunamis, dutch elm disease, myxamatosis, blue tongue and the death of the common sparrow. Shame on you.

[Pierre]

Fox hunting isn't about fox population control any more than bull fighting ot badger baiting is. I'm not arguing that that makes it any more right or wrong, but it's futile to attempt to use that excuse to justify it. If you're getting lots of your mates, their horses and their dogs, together, to run rough-shod across other people's land and kill an animal at the end of it, at least admit that you're doing it for kicks. Don't try and justify it in fox population terms, it's irrelevant.

: P

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

"When they dig up dens at the beginning of a hunt and find cubs, or a pregnant vixen, do you know what the standard practice is?"

Whatever it is it will end up in death, I presume you are referring to throwing the foxes to the pack - a horrible but swift end.

You actually don't seem to know anything about the subject Michael. In the situation I described the hunt will not kill the cubs or the pregnant vixen, they will leave them alone, the reason being that they do not want to deprive themselves of their future sport. This is clearly not the action of people who are interested in culling the fox population.

Much the same end that Foxes dish out to chickens. Nature red in tooth and claw. Your small Farmer may wish to reflect on this as he makes good the devastation caused by the hunt as they poured tornado-like through his perfect Cider With Rosie small holding. He may even have to repaint the white picket fence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding heart animal lover and have no problem with the rural fox population being controlled. I've also seen first hand what a fox will do if it gets into a chicken coup, but that has absolutely nothing to do with fox hunting. Likewise, I've seen the harm that fox hunts do to people's land, and its more than cosmetic damage to fences.

[Keef]

Pierre Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fox hunting isn't about fox population control any more than bull fighting ot badger baiting is. I'm not arguing that that makes it any more right or wrong, but it's futile to attempt to use that excuse to justify it. If you're getting lots of your mates, their horses and their dogs, together, to run rough-shod across other people's land and kill an animal at the end of it, at least admit that you're doing it for kicks. Don't try and justify it in fox population terms, it's

irrelevant.

Spot on!

[jumpinjackflash]

But is there a way of deterring foxes from your garden without harming them? My dog caught a severe dose of mange when he got hold of one about three months ago and he's only just recovering from it (4 vet visits and ?500 later(6))

The same mange ridden fox keeps appearing on the street and my God if you saw it - it looks like one of those hounds from the Resident Evil films. It has it so bad that you can literally walk right up to it and it won't turn away - just looks you right in the eye - he's deranged.

[Keef]

Apparently peeing around the borders is good for keeping them away.