Who does it?

[Marmora Man]

ruffers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Can I do this in the car then. Reason? Green

> efficiency. Stopping the car and starting again

> uses a lot more fuel than just carrying on... :)

I tend to view pedestrians and cyclists as equals - so pedestrians cross the road when the little man is red, but there is no traffic and I cross pedestrian crossings when the light is red and there are no pedestrians.

Cars are different - the driver is in a bubble, not sharing the same air / world as cyclist & pedestrian, the car driver's decision to go thru' a red light or brake has to be taken sooner / at a greater distance from the light and there is thus a greater danger of someone stepping out onto the crossing.

[Jimbob]

how righteous you all are, yet if a motorised vehicle driver behaved in the same way he would be condemned beyond belief. just because you ride a bike you dont have carte blanche to behave as you wish on the roads, the laws are the same for all road users, they are there for a reason and require to be observed. when and not if one of you gets hurt or god forbid worse as a consequence of your selfish behaviour, dont expect any sympathy from me, a fellow cyclist by the way.

[ruffers]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ruffers Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > Can I do this in the car then. Reason? Green

> > efficiency. Stopping the car and starting again

> > uses a lot more fuel than just carrying on...

> :)

>

> I tend to view pedestrians and cyclists as equals

> - so pedestrians cross the road when the little

> man is red, but there is no traffic and I cross

> pedestrian crossings when the light is red and

> there are no pedestrians.

>

> Cars are different - the driver is in a bubble,

> not sharing the same air / world as cyclist &

> pedestrian, the car driver's decision to go thru'

> a red light or brake has to be taken sooner / at a

> greater distance from the light and there is thus

> a greater danger of someone stepping out onto the

> crossing.

Bikes can hurt people, and they can cause accidents. I'm sure this one's been done to death before but I still think they should be taxed, insured, and subject to the rules of the road just like the rest of us.

[Horsebox]

Jimbob Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> how righteous you all are, yet if a motorised

> vehicle driver behaved in the same way he would be

> condemned beyond belief. just because you ride a

> bike you dont have carte blanche to behave as you

> wish on the roads, the laws are the same for all

> road users, they are there for a reason and

> require to be observed. when and not if one of you

> gets hurt or god forbid worse as a consequence of

> your selfish behaviour, dont expect any sympathy

> from me, a fellow cyclist by the way.

I think I'll cope just fine without your sympathy, Jimbob, but thanks all the same for the heads up.

[BARA]

In younger and fitter years, I cycled and never jumped red lights. Hubby is a regular cyclist and always obeys lights, he has even been knocked off bike by cyclists overtaking him eager to cross on the red. As a car driver, sitting at the lights by the Plough I often see cyclists charge out on the red light not realising that at some phases the lights have a green filter. They get very annoyed when the green man is up and a pedestrian gets in their way. I always give cyclists a wide berth when overtaking them but also judge the width and clearness of the road first.

[cdonline]

ruffers Wrote:

>

> Bikes can hurt people, and they can cause

> accidents. I'm sure this one's been done to death

> before but I still think they should be taxed,

> insured, and subject to the rules of the road just

> like the rest of us.

I know. Many a time you hear about the carnage that somebody on a two wheel contraption causes. It's Mayhem out there. I'm sure the person killed just down the road a few days ago, as a driver decided to ploughed onto the pavement, would rather play dodgems with a bike rather than bloody great van that ended her life.

[Jimbob]

Horsebox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jimbob Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > how righteous you all are, yet if a motorised

> > vehicle driver behaved in the same way he would

> be

> > condemned beyond belief. just because you ride

> a

> > bike you dont have carte blanche to behave as

> you

> > wish on the roads, the laws are the same for

> all

> > road users, they are there for a reason and

> > require to be observed. when and not if one of

> you

> > gets hurt or god forbid worse as a consequence

> of

> > your selfish behaviour, dont expect any

> sympathy

> > from me, a fellow cyclist by the way.

>

> I think I'll cope just fine without your sympathy,

> Jimbob, but thanks all the same for the heads up.

pleasure

[ruffers]

cdonline Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ruffers Wrote:

>

> >

> > Bikes can hurt people, and they can cause

> > accidents. I'm sure this one's been done to

> death

> > before but I still think they should be taxed,

> > insured, and subject to the rules of the road

> just

> > like the rest of us.

>

>

> I know. Many a time you hear about the carnage

> that somebody on a two wheel contraption causes.

> It's Mayhem out there. I'm sure the person

> killed just down the road a few days ago, as a

> driver decided to ploughed onto the pavement,

> would rather play dodgems with a bike rather than

> bloody great van that ended her life.

Or the time the cyclist caused an accident involving me on my motorbike. Personal injuries to me, hundreds of pounds of damage to my bike. But that's OK eh? as he cycled off without a number plate or insurance care in the world leaving me to pick up the tab...

[Huguenot]

Dull as ditchwater as I try to be, there's always some data out there:

This is a study of cycle accident causes in the US

Although this study equates cycling through red lights with failing to give way at STOP signs, I think that it's still a fair reflection of the consequences of going through reds in the UK. In both cases there's both a requirement to stop, and an expectation from fellow road users that you will.

In the study (across six states) cyclists jumping stop signals result in a staggering 23% of serious or fatal injuries, and just under 10% of all bicycle accidents.

It's also interesting to note that although cyclists are most scared of other big road users making mistakes, it's in fact the cyclists themselves that are responsible for the majority of accidents through breaking highway codes and failing to take sensible precautions.

By all accounts cocky gets you killed? ;-)

(On another note, I seem to get the impression that there's a few people who actually seem to think this kind of thing, endangering both your own and others' lives, is cool?)

[taper]

On my cycle commute to work, I reckon I see a car go through a red about once every three minutes.

[Huguenot]

So are the other cars stopping on green, or are you talking about just a fraction of a second here?

[Marmora Man]

Hugenot,

The majority of posters here haven't defended ignoring red traffic lights or adopting "cool / terrorist" cycle tactics of some bicycle users.

I described my approach - which I would call discretionary. Always stop at traffic lights at road junctions, don't always stop for red lights at pedestrian crossings where it is obvious the way ahead is clear.

[lozzyloz]

There are two types of cyclists that ignore red lights.

The irresponsible ones that fly through without pausing and with no concern for theirs or others safety

and

The responsible ones like me, who always stop first, extinguish the cigarette and terminate the phone call before proceeding safely without spilling my beer.

[taper]

Hugenot - Proper red light running, not at the cusp of the change from amber to red. Camberwell Green and two junctions on Blackfriars Road particular blackspots.

[blinder999]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So are the other cars stopping on green, or are

> you talking about just a fraction of a second

> here?

IMO the notion of jumping red lights 'by a fraction of a second' is mob-speak b0ll0cks - we all know when we're supposed to stop - there's no grey area, except when the vociferous car-driving majority wants to excuse their own rotten behavour while hypocritically berating the cyclist minority.

For the record, I have an absolutist always-stop-at-red-lights policy, but I really loathe the hypocrisy, ill-considered arguments, knee-jerk reactions and attempted mob-bullying that taints any discussion of cycling.

Having said that, I got overtaken at every red light between ED and Hyde Park Corner this morning by a grey-haired bloke in his forties riding an old Peugeot racing bike, wearing black lycra cycling shorts and a yellow top. This was very irritating, and in fact, illustrates my personal reason for never jumping red lights: it p1sses everyone off.

[SteveT]

Blinder wrote: illustrates my personal reason for never jumping red lights: it p1sses everyone off.

Sorry Blinder I disagree, I couldn't care a jot if cyclists wants to take a risk with their immediate future whilst maintaining momentum.

They can jump every red light from here to John o Groats as far as I am concerned it is their decision and all I can say is, I'm envious.

I think cyclists have a rough deal in urban areas, and I have no wish to make life any more difficult for them.

[Marmora Man]

The responsible ones like me, who always stop first, extinguish the cigarette and terminate the phone call before proceeding safely without spilling my beer.

You reminded me of an old friend who complained that the Royal Navy rugby team was never as good after they took the pockets out of their rugby shorts - there was nowhere to store their fags & lighters, he added that the oranges at half time were not as good as the half pints of Guinness they'd been used to.

[PeckhamRose]

I am not a cyclist but I have changed my views recently about their crossing red lights. Cyclists - like us motorcyclists - know that when we come off our vehicles chances are we will hurt more, specially cyclists. So they do it - not because they can get away with it, but because in most cases they have made a value judgment (and remember we're now in a society where we are having the opportunities to practice and our abilities to use common sense and judgments taken away from us) that it is safe to do so! The point here is that in London there are just too many unnecessary traffic lights. And all the boroughs have different rules for what type of vehicle can ride or drive where and in what lane. There's no London wode coherence. In USA there's pretty much the same rule for the whole country with JUSt a few differences involving right turns on red lights and helmet laws etc... But they are much more sensible in their big towns with their traffic light useage.

[citizenED]

I regularly cycle to work and pretty much have an always-stop-on-red policy. Must be my upbringing - even when its perfectly safe to go through a red, I just cannot.

[Huguenot]

...murdered today...young woman driving three kids to school...swerving to avoid clever cyclist...put car under lorry...cyclist says I'm in the right...dead mother says...

[Huguenot]

Numbers talk

[Huguenot]

Can I just add, I'm starting to come across like sh1thead number one but honestly, perfectly reasonable bloke. I'm just trying to give the numbers. :(

I don't understand how all these cars can go through reds without hitting a car coming from another direction? It doesn't seem plausible. These guys see red and then think 'cross your fingers sonny, pedal to the metal'?

This must be urban myth?

What are these people thinking as they ride the gauntlet.... I am king, I am immortal, I am a cowboy here is my gun. Look on me lesser mortals and weep at my mastery. I spit on you and your everyday rules. I strut with angels an... *SPLAT*.

Is this conversation just about pedestrian crossings? I've been hit twice by cyclists walking over at pedestrian crossings and because I'm a nice guy I only gave the guy an additional kick the second time. ;-)

[taper]

if you know a set of lights well, you'll know you have a period of grace when you can go through on red and not risk having an accident. buses do it a lot. saw one go through a light that was red this morning.

[beef]

As a pedestrian I have noticed that bikes are stopping at the red lights far more often than they used to, a couple of years ago it was almost a daily grapple with the lycra loonies who feared a loss of momentum more than they feared colliding with me crossing at a green man. I am quite happy for cyclists to jump when we've finished crossing so they can get a head start, as I feel most pedestrians are. The motorist on the other hand, the times they've accelerated through a red at one end of a junction only to be speeding across the pedestrian crossing when it is green at the other end, or another particular bugbear, parking on the crossing when it's on green (what are we to do, climb over you?). I could go on, ....

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/8722.aspx

and

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/9063.aspx#things

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I slow down at red lights but stop if cars are going the other way or people want to cross, but it is too dangerous in London as a cyclist to keep stopping and starting with the traffic.

You are much more likely to get hit by a car when you are trying to get started again if they are starting up as well as your speed just can't match theirs and the cars behind don't get time to see you at the short distance they have to cover when the car in front that was blocking their view of you speeds off.

The reason there are great big green boxes in front of where the cars are supposed to stop at traffic lights is not just to give us cyclists a head start, it is also so the cars can see that we are actually there.