Incident on the 343

[Horsebox]

Keef Wrote:

> Why are cyclists getting so defensive on here, I

> just do not get it!

>

Perhaps they are getting defensive because bad driving and threats towards them, be they verbal or physical, along with the attitude that 'all cyclists jump red lights/are dangerous/ etc' are an all too common occurence?

Perhaps it's because more than one person has made light of and seen humour in this guy getting punched in the face?

> However, everyone seems to think the cyclist was

> within his rights to act like a total nutter

> because he'd been wronged (not that anyone knows

> that).

Has anybody actually said that they think the cyclist was right in his behaviour? No.

We have no idea what set off his attack on the bus. For all we know his riding partner could have been clipped by the bus and knocked over. He may have been trying to get the bus driver to stop fleeing the scene of an accident.

On the other hand he simply may have just been a psycho with a particular distaste for buses.

Anyway, here's a youtube clip for you http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QcAI8WFPIRI

Sadly, this horrid individual's attitude is not a rare one.

(that's not meant as a dig at you, Keef);-)

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Jimbob]

oi!clear off or we,ll set a bus driver on you.

[dave]

Regardless of how it "started", there are two people here who broke the law, and acted in a way that, in my opinion, civilised society really ought not consider acceptable, much less funny.

The cyclist banging on the side of the bus and kicking the doors open - criminal damage, pure and simple. The bus driver punching the cyclist in the face - common assault, and possibly also something for leaving the scene. The bus driver is, I think, fairly being criticised above - primarily because he has a duty of care to his passengers and to other road users which he appears to have abrogated completely. Regardless of the circumstances, and the lead-up, he never had to leave his perspex safety cell - the Met would, I imagine, have been there fairly promptly had he reported the incident and in the meantime, he would have been completely safe.

By doing what he did, and striking out at someone who clearly has serious anger management issues, he left himself open to disciplinary action and potentially prosecution. Both acted unacceptably. Who started it is as immaterial as any playground fight.

I appreciate that driving a bus in London is not particularly well-paid, and I imagine it's not a wildly satisfying occupation. And while I have my share of stories about being a bus passenger while someone drove in a way which I felt was reckless, or being a cyclist and having a bus pull around me to stop thirty yards later, I've never reached the point where a punch in the head seemed to be the logical next step in conflict resolution and I hope I never will. I'm more a "stop by the side of the road, take a cameraphone pic of the bus and draft a stern letter of complaint which never gets posted but which makes me feel much better" sort of chap.

In this case, both were at fault, and I think I would have been scared witless had I been a passenger on the bus. Even in the absence of prosecutions, I also think that it's newsworthy. People shouldn't get away with this sort of thing - the SLP seems as good a means as any to discuss what happened here and make sure it's followed up. The antipathy between cyclists and bus drivers appears to be worsening - I'd like to see some ideas on why, and how to make the situation better - personally I'd like to see bike racks on the front of buses as they have in the US and elsewhere. That might go some way to remove the "them and us" from the situation.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Oh wow. Dave are you son of SeanMac?

Good post.

[carolyn]

i received some feedback from someone who called TfL directly and according to them it appears that the cyclist threw the first punch. from where I was standing on Tuesday it appeared to me that the driver threw the first punch but i hesitate to argue with cctv footage. I still stand by my original belief that both men handled this poorly and that the driver (as well as the cyclist) could still use some anger management courses, but thought it was important to update the thread as well.

And I would still encourage anyone else who witnessed this to report it to TfL, even if they don't respond, it should go on record and may cause them to review policies and procedures in the future. Having reported it to the police and TfL already I think I'm at the end of my involvement in the whole thing.

[Keef]

Fair play to you dave, very good post.

[PeckhamRose]

You're not at the end of your involvement if you witnessed an assault. If the cyclist sues you should say what you saw.

And good post, Dave. I just think "anger management courses" are very middle class, and not something many people would think of doing, specially those that need it. If we all were able to manage our anger, nothing would change or improve. If we all got a bit more angry about things, we could change the world.

It's been a nice weekend...!

[Jimbob]

bike racks on the front of buses. is that inside or out?

bloke banging and shouting, kicks in doors, throws first punch, driver still guilty?

bloke assaults bus driver, driver defends self, driver now needs anger management course.

sometimes you just can,t win.

[carolyn]

peckham rose, of course, i just meant on here

Jimbob, they both need anger management courses and possibly a road safety course or two (or ten), i hope i implied that in my first post, but if i didn't i'm saying it now. and have said repeatedly that they both behaved horribly

[dave]

The bike racks I am talking about are on the outside. See here for the sort of thing. I wonder if UK road safety legislation would prevent them from being legal here.

Caroyln's update from TfL does paint the driver in a slightly better light - saying that, I still think he ought to have stayed in his safety cage (what's it for, otherwise?) and called the police.

[boosboss]

The driver shouldn't have been out of the bus in the first place! Busses are fitted with cctv and screens to protect the driver and the bus companies will push for prosecutions. The driver has a (relative) place of safety, which is where he should have stayed and which his training would've told him to do. The bus is not his and he is not obliged to defend it against vandalism! If some nutter of a cyclist wants to beat up a bus, the driver should've let him, called the police and waited for them to arrive. It's a shame we don't know what sparked off this event, because I'd hazard a guess it was significant at least to the cyclist.

Self defence? Retaliation? A fine line, but either may have been avoided by the driver being more professional.

So, Is the driver of the bus is still to blame? To blame for the initial incident, perhaps not. To blame for the escalation? Probably!

[Jeremy]

Bike racks... awful idea! The last thing we want is to have buses waiting at the stops while people load or unload their bikes. It makes the journey longer and clogs up the road. We need to get the buses moving again asap, that was one of the objectives of the oyster card and bendy buses.

It might work on express services (if they exist) - on anything else, forget it.

[PeckhamRose]

No you can't have enough hooks and racks. See the average 4WD on the roads of Kent heading for the caravan parks in Fannet* of a Friday lunchtime (the construction trade weekends start then).

I think busses should have cycle racks, and big hooks for people's shopping (or their kids) for which there is NO room INside the bus, a little cage or so for people's dogs, and of course a roof rack for everyone's shopping and the occasional moped which has run out of fuel. The wheelchair users could hook themselves on the back and just be hauled along behind.

That way everyone's 'appy.

*Thanet

[Jeremy]

These chaps have the right idea:

http://www.photomediagroup.com/archive/2003-winter/img/lh-pushkarBus.jpg