Interesting Legal/Moral Issue

[Loz]

I've been following the bitter and downright weird surrogacy story that's been in the news of late.

An Australian couple employed a surrogate in Thailand. Two babies were born, however one was disabled. The couple only took the non-disabled child.

The couple now say they didn't know about the other child, and want him as well. The surrogate mother says they did know, asked her to abort the child, then later rejected the second child and so they are not having him.

Over and above any moral issues around surrogacy, there are some very interesting legal issues.

- Genetically, the surrogate is not the biological mother (it was a donor egg)

- The Australian man is the biological father of both children, as his sperm was used.

- The issue is further clouded by the fact the Australian man has a previous child sex abuse conviction.

So who has parental (or any other) rights here? My guess is that - rightly or wrongly - as the only biological parent stepping forward, the Australian man has the right to the child here. But, do surrogacy rules and child protection rules change this?

[Dopamine1979]

Surely you enter into some sort of written contract for surrogacy?

[Otta]

It all sounds very iffy. They (apparently) spent a lot of money, and the agencty seems to have closed it's doors. I keep thinking surely some hospital staff or someone has some idea what the hell went on.

Very odd story.

[Salsaboy]

Whose laws would it come under? Australia or Thailand?

[DaveR]

Surrogacy is a legal nightmare, even more so when it is arranged informally, and worst of all internationally, where UK law, (or in this case Australian law) will usually follow whatever the legal position is at the time and place of birth. In many countries the default position is that the legal mother is the birth mother, and the legal father is the husband of the birth mother or no one i.e. no automatic parental rights flow from being a genetic parent.

[maxxi]

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but you asked - I find the desperation to have children and the lengths some people are prepared to go to to satisfy this breeding urge rather repugnant in an overpopulated world where countless orphanages are doing steady business.

ETA: No. I realise you didn't ask about surrogacy in general but it was what I thought when this whole sorry story unfolded on tv - that and the fact that the 'father' did the fake crying thing - made me shudder.

[Otta]

It's obviously a complicated and emotive subject, but I don't disagree with you maxxi.

[LadyDeliah]

There are real health problems with IVF babies because the normal survival of the fittest sperm swim doesn't take place. There was a recent report on the unusual and hitherto relatively unknown health problems many IVF now adults have been diagnosed with.

There was a big backlash against the report by the IVF industry and news reporting of the report was very brief.

I also think it's pretty grim the whole 'I am entitled to a child' mentality that fuels the growth in surrogacy and the commodification of children.

This particular story is a really grim example of surrogacy at it's worst.

[LadyDeliah]

Also the Australian peado father would have been unlikely to pass the tests for adoption, even from abroad, so surrogacy seems like a way for child molestors to get round those rules and buy themselves a kid.

[StraferJack]

"I also think it's pretty grim the whole 'I am entitled to a child' mentality that fuels the growth in surrogacy and the commodification of children. "

Not as grim as reaching a point in life where the desire to be a parent kicks in and you realise you can't conceive

Saying it's an "entitled to a child" thing is pretty damn harsh - anything else medicine does where people are being "entitled"

Do people with stomach cancer feel "entitled" to treatment? Advances in medicine, eh? Such a bind...

There is a debate about population numbers, commodification, entitlement to be had - but I suspect it would need a little more tact and diplomacy to get going....

[LadyDeliah]

Entitlement to other kinds of medical treatment doesn't involve production of another human being. I think there are degrees of commodification of children and that's what I find repellant.

I guess that doesn't apply to the majority of IVF parents, but surely the possibility of inferior sperm fertilising the egg and producing a child with a higher likihood of health problems should be a consideration.

Adoption would not be my answer as it has it's own problems unless the adoption happens really quickly when the child is a baby because the bonds are more difficult to forge the older the child is.

[Otta]

I have no issue at all with IVF, I know couples who've had to go down that road and it's wonderful they've had that option.

I'm not entirely against surrogacy, but I don't like the fact people can go and pay a poor girl from a poor country with very littke (or no) regulation.

[TE44]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/11015898/Surrogacy-case-the-history-of-sex-offences-of-the-Australian-accused-of-leaving-surrogate-baby-in-Thailand.html

The history of sex offences.

On coming back with one of the twins, I can't help wondering if the ausralian authorities would

have allowed this couple to keep the baby had this not been brought to media attention.If this

is the case I wonder how many convicted paedophiles have used surrogacy.

[miga]

.

[Loz]

Playing Devil's Advocate, the surrogate (usually) gets a life changing amount of money.

[Jeremy]

Clearly surrogacy, IVF, etc should only be made available after passing appropriate background checks.

But IMO criticism of people taking these treatments are out of order if you've never experienced the pain and distress of being unable to start a family. Not to mention profoundly hypocritical when you've already had kids of your own.

[Dopamine1979]

What Jeremy said.

[Salsaboy]

Works well in a first world country but there will always be someone in the developing world who'll take it on for the money.

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Clearly surrogacy, IVF, etc should only be made

> available after passing appropriate background

> checks.

>

> But IMO criticism of people taking these

> treatments are out of order if you've never

> experienced the pain and distress of being unable

> to start a family. Not to mention profoundly

> hypocritical when you've already had kids of your

> own.