Congratualtions to the State of Israel.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Its the Pope. I know it is. Jesus told me.

[Keef]

You know Jesus too? He told me I was special!

*shuffles off*

[LegalEagle-ish]

For those who want to know, here is the definition of genocide as stated in the Genocide convention:

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The key words are 'intent to destroy, in whole or in part'. The Israelis may not publicise any intent to destroy in whole or part the Palestinians, but their actions could give a clue to their intentions. Not just bombing the shit out of them, displacement from their lands in 1947 and continued displacement and land grabbing since to both the Palestinians and neighbouring countries. They breach UN resolutions and countless international laws, but are never brought to book because their good buddies the Americans have the veto on the security council.

Lets look at the acts and intent of Hamas in light of the Genocide Convention and international law.

Hamas representing an occupied people, who under international law have a right to defend themselves, when they get democratically elected have their MP's kidnapped by the occupying power and condemmed as being 'anti-democratic' - hmmn can't quite work that one out - have their democratically elected government undermined by a seige and blovking of their borders by the occupying power and are then called genocidal for firing some rockets into the country who are occupying and systematically wiping out their people.

I know who I think are the ones committing genocide here.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Some further reading for the studious among you:

Israel disqualifies Arab parties

Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation

UN HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERTS DEEPLY REGRET OBSTRUCTION BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL OF A PLANNED MISSION

UN General Assembly Report of the Working Group on the Universal Periodic Review *

Israel

Enjoy

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Not just bombing the shit out of them, displacement from their lands in 1947 and continued displacement and land grabbing since to both the Palestinians and neighbouring countries. They breach UN resolutions and countless international laws, but are never brought to book because their good buddies the Americans have the veto on the security council.

I think you'll find that Israel hasn't breached any UN resolutions regarding the occupied territories, I bet you can't name the specific resolution/s. You also fail to mention who attacked who in 1947 and why so many Palestinians evacuated the newly formed State of Israel in the early stages of the conflict.

[LegalEagle-ish]

There are about 65 UN resolutions aimed at Israel regarding their treatment of the Palestinians - sorry if I can't remember them all, but some condemned Israels illegal settlements of Palestinian land, the huge barrier they have built on Palestinian land anexing huge chunks of it, the killing of Palestinian civillians and more I can't remember off the top of my head - all of which they continue to breach and are never brought to book over because of the power of their US paymasters.

Mockney - can you pull a comprehensive list of breached UN resolutions out of your hat for me??

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

There are about 65 UN resolutions aimed at Israel regarding their treatment of the Palestinians - sorry if I can't remember them all, but some condemned Israels illegal settlements of Palestinian land, the huge barrier they have built on Palestinian land anexing huge chunks of it, the killing of Palestinian civillians and more I can't remember off the top of my head - all of which they continue to breach and are never brought to book over because of the power of their US paymasters.

I was asking specifically about resolutions telling Israel to give back the land it occupied in 1947. Could you remind me who started that war? Can you tell me how many UN resolutions Israel's neighbours have honoured?

[LegalEagle-ish]

We are not talking about their neigbours - we are talking about Israel and Palestine.

There have been no UN resolutions aimed at Palestine to be breached.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Just leave it to Tony Blair and he will sort it.

Probably single-handedly.

"In Tony,We Trust"....

[Keef]

It's really interesting, reading this is showing how this is not a two sided debate, but rather multi sided. Yesterday, I was kind of with MP "against" DPF (not against you as such, but disagreeing with you), however, reading the above, I am most certainly not with CWALD (sorry, LegalEagle). I am not against you either, but your points are very very rigid and B&W.

Just goes to show what an almighty mess the whole thing is!

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

We are not talking about their neigbours - we are talking about Israel and Palestine.

There have been no UN resolutions aimed at Palestine to be breached.

Except the one that called on Israel's neighbours to accept the partition of Palestine, which all have refused (except Egypt) to do, which is at the heart of the stalemate over the occupied territories. You are aware that Israel is part of the historical region of Palestine?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I hope no-one takes offence and that this is not too controversial but would it not be a good idea to remove all Israeli's and Palestinians from Israel and Palestine and blow the whole area up(?)

Reduce the area to cinders....

Then(and here's the clever bit) assist all Israeli's to reach the new homeland of their choice(with the consent of the accepting Countries) and assist all Palestinians to re-settle in other Arabian Countries of their choice too.(with the consent of the accepting Countries)....

Everyone's happy and problem solved(tu)

[LegalEagle-ish]

Yes, but the Israeli Jewish state is not. That was an artificial construction imposed in the region after the second world war by the west, to give the western powers a foothold in the oil rich Arab countries with which they could destablize and divide the Arab world.

DPF - Just thought as a feminist and supposedly left-ish leaning person, that you would like to know that Israel is one of the lead destination countries for trafficked women.

"Israel remains one of the main world destinations for trafficked women and while significant

efforts were made to eliminate trafficking through a series of criminal convictions and the

launch of a national plan, more attention needs to be paid to rehabilitation of victims

including housing and medical service support." from COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, STAFF WORKING DOCUMENT on Israel at p10

[Keef]

Sorry, but WTF has that got to do with anything???

(before I get beasted, I am not saying that that, if true, isn't very bad, but don't see what relevence it has on this thread other than to score a point against another woman you're argueing with by showing how femenist and left wing you are).

[LegalEagle-ish]

And just incase anyone wants to really get stuck into some reading on Israel - here is a link I use for country of origin information when I do asylum and immigration appeals.

You can get useful info on loads of different countries on there.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Sorry Keef - just an interesting fact that I thought I'd share!

Also heard on Radio 4 this morning that the ratio of Israeli to Paelstinian deaths in this latest little scuffle was 1 to 100 respectively.

Do you still think it's a balanced conflict?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Yes, but the Israeli Jewish state is not. That was an artificial construction imposed in the region after the second world war by the west, to give the western powers a foothold in the oil rich Arab countries with which they could destablize and divide the Arab world.

Err, the UN partitioned Palestine, the same UN whose supposed resolutions you give such importance to.

DPF - Just thought as a feminist and supposedly left-ish leaning person, that you would like to know that Israel is one of the lead destination countries for trafficked women.

So is the UK.

[LegalEagle-ish]

"The Government of the United Kingdom fully

complies with the minimum standards for the

elimination of trafficking. Over the last year, U.K.

authorities continued to launch aggressive anti-trafficking

law enforcement efforts to uncover trafficking

and identify victims."

p39 US Report on Trafficking in Persons 2008

"The Government of Israel does not fully comply

with the minimum standards for the elimination

of trafficking; however, it is making significant

efforts to do so. This year, the government

increased the number of convictions for sex

trafficking offenses, and conducted a campaign

to prevent forced labor. Israel also continues to

provide victims of sex trafficking with shelter and

protection assistance. Nonetheless, though the

government prepared some indictments for forced

labor, it did not criminally prosecute or convict

any employer or recruitment agent for labor

trafficking. In addition, the government still does

not provide forced labor victims with adequate

protection services, such as appropriate shelter, or

medical and psychological assistance."

p12 US Report on Trafficking in Persons 2008

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Its completely irrelevant, but you are aware what Hamas would do to those poor women aren't you?

[Keef]

The Government of Israel does not fully comply

with the minimum standards for the elimination

of trafficking; however, it is making significant

efforts to do so.

I dare say they have other things on their minds at the moment too to be honest.

[Keef]

If you are Jewish, and believe in a peaceful end to all this, you might like to check out the Jews for justice for Palestinians website. My father in law is a member and has been marching with them recently. I have read all their stuff, and if I was Jewish I'd sign up with them too.

[mockney piers]

Hmm, taken a very strange turn.

Ignoring the Affluent western state in prostitution shock meander, a couple of things.

Firstly I disagree with the creation of Israel/oil connection.

This two things may have conflated in US policy makers' eyes post oil crisis and particulrly after the fall of the Shah in '79, but prior to that the West felt that could ensure that compliant regimes could be maintained with military support and close ties (witness every Saudi prince off to Eton, Sandhurst, Harvard etc).

Israel was born of two things, a very well organised Zionist strategy and an exasperated Britain washing their hands of the whole affair. Thrown a dash of Holocaust guilt bitters and you have the Israel cocktail.

I'd warn against romanticising the tiny state taking on overwhelming attackers. Everyone knew the Zionist strategy to create a Jewish state would lead to war.

The proto Israelis were better organised and better prepared for that eventuality, you can't blame them, well done. By 1947 they were also better armed having bought job lots of shermans, spitfires, brens etc from a bunch of exhausted powers looking to demob and to a certain extent disarm.

A jewish state also meant getting a large majority in ones areas and the midwives of the Israeli nation were not above using murder and intimidation to achieve this, what we would now term ethnic cleansing. They may well have felt justified in a 'done for survival' fashion but it happened, get over it.

Where we are now though is an acceptance of the UN recognised state of 1948, and these should be the frame of discussion.

That past is done and we have a reality today; that's fine.

Post 1973 everyone is in agreement that pre'67 borders are the ones that need to be discussed and adhered to.

That's everyone, yes including Hamas and Iran. Noone is seeking to push them into the sea. don't give me Ahmedinejad nonsense, he has no say over foreign policy at all, but he felt pronouncements like that would help his chances of reelection (actually they've mostly back-fired and he'll probably lose the next election).

So the main things to discuss are Settlements, a viable palestinian state, governance of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

I don't have the figures re the UN, but there have been a host of UN resolutions post 1967 particularly regards the occupied territories, I'm pretty sure none of which have been honoured by Israel. The US has had more vetos in the security Council regards attempted resolutions that deal with Israel, than even the old Soviet Union managed full stop.

[mockney piers]

None of which should mean Israel needs to be complacent. But there is a difference between preparedness and stubborness; between right to defend oneself and visiting salughter upon civilians.

[Keef]

Indeed!

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Post 1973 everyone is in agreement that pre'67 borders are the ones that need to be discussed and adhered to.

That's everyone, yes including Hamas and Iran. Noone is seeking to push them into the sea. don't give me Ahmedinejad nonsense, he has no say over foreign policy at all, but he felt pronouncements like that would help his chances of reelection (actually they've mostly back-fired and he'll probably lose the next election).

Then why won't they recognise the sovereignty of Israel in its pre-1967 state. You are absolutely insane if you think groups like Hamas intend to peacefully co-exist with Israel.

So the main things to discuss are Settlements, a viable palestinian state, governance of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

A viable Palestinian state? What, you mean Jordan?

I don't have the figures re the UN, but there have been a host of UN resolutions post 1967 particularly regards the occupied territories,

Yeah and none of them were binding unless Israel's neighbours recognised its right to exist. Only Egypt did this, and guess what, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula.