Consultation on ?improving? the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale

[first mate]

Woodwarde, Many thanks. This lack of transparency is concerning. James Barber are you aware of plans for the Southwark Spine? What comments do you have about Woodwarde's observations and concerns?

[wulfhound]

The Southwark Spine route appears to run further east - Dulwich Park, Eynella Road, Crystal Palace Road, Lyndhurst Way. Calton Avenue, Townley Road, Green Dale is part of existing cycle route "LCN 23", which I've seen referred to as a Spine Route in the past, but is not the Southwark Spine they're talking about nowadays.

(aside: I wish they'd upgrade the 22 & 23 routes as I use both a lot, but they've reached a point where fixing the weakest links of either is a real challenge - so they're looking at other routes with easier upgrades and no hills).

One way systems and roundabouts are awful for both residents and cyclists so I really hope you're wrong edhistory!

James - are you & your colleague proposing to oppose the banned right on grounds of inconvenience, or on grounds of making rat running on other local roads worse (Woodwarde Road and Gilkes Crescent look likely to suffer)?

Put it another way - if measures could be sought to address likely problems on those roads, would that change your view? Do you support removing through-traffic from the minor roads in principle, even if this design isn't quite right in practice?

[James Barber]

Hi edhistory,

No it doesn't.

Hi @Woodwarde,

You're getting a bit silly now.

The Draft cycling strategy has come after this scheme was proposed. But to ensure the cycling stratgy looks good they've hoovered up whatever schemes are on the book and included them into the strategy. No one can take a cycling strategy that includes two south Southwark junciton improvements this being one of them. a N-S route and existing TfL plans and call it a strategy.

The North-south spine is a reformating of London Cycle Network route 23 from memory. LCN 23 has been around for 20+ years and crosses this junction and proceeds along Calton Avenue. It's spin with extra TfL money to give some substance such as this junction proposal. And even keeping the Townley right turn the proposals will be a step improvement for children walking and cycling.

[DadOf4]

We've all seen this sort of approach from Southwark council before. Commission a poorly thought through "consultation" and then try to implement a badly thought through/expensive scheme that may/may not cure an immediate problem - but without thinking of the wider consequences (I'm thinking back to the crazy attempt to intoduce controlled parking a couple of years ago)

IMO - banning the right turn here may have a slight safety advantage over light re-phase, better markings,etc. However, its likely to have an overall net decrease in safety when the knock-on effects at other nearby juntions are considered.

There are 1000's of junctions in london where cyclists have to cross turning traffic - and I dont think anybody here is suggesting we ban ALL right turns. Its simply that this junction does not feel lie a crossing - it feels like a t-junction. Clearer signs & re-phasing the lights can fix this. Of course, this is from personal/anecdotal experience as (as usual) Southwark have wasted a load of money on a consultation exercise without giving us any proper data on which to base the decision.

People using their phones when driving is a mjaor problem for cyclists (and should be heavily punished) - but removing the RH turn here wont cure that problem.

[@Woodwarde]

The comments gathering on the Southwark Spine is visible:

http://www.sdgdigital.co.uk/sites/southwarkcycling/

Comments there for:

Barry Road

Woodwarde and Eyenella

Crystal Palace Road

[Glemham]

This scheme proposing to ban the right turn from Townley Road into East Dulwich Grove has been sprung on local residents. We have been given no information on the predicted impact on our road and the local road network if this scheme were to be adopted. In common with many of my neighbours I believe the displaced traffic will be diverted to other junctions, our and other smaller residential streets, adversely impacting the amenity, air quality and safety of the area.

The proposals are weighted heavily in favour of cyclists and make no mention of the congestion caused at this junction at peak times by the traffic ? cars and coaches ? caused by the two schools, JAGS and Alleyns.

Both schools have expanded so much that they have little or no space on their land for coach and car parking resulting from so many young people being brought into the area for their education. At 4pm one evening last week there were eleven coaches parked close to the junction at the Alleyns end of Townley Road. Outside of peak times and in the holidays this is not a particularly busy junction.

Residents in nearby streets also have to cope with parking from staff and other school cars during term time ? just look at Calton Avenue ? again because there is little or no provision for staff parking at Alleyns.

Southwark should carry out a traffic and parking survey in term time and the holiday period in this area to determine the true extent of the problem.

[Curmudgeon]

The Coaches serving the private schools are an extreme hazard to safe motoring, cycling and walking.

This is brought up year after year

Nobody cares - least of all the schools they serve who, in my view, have a duty to ensure coaches park in the bays provided, not on both sides of the road ignoring the boxes and that they switch off their engines

[first mate]

Think offering opportunity to win a cash raffle prize if you sign up and participate is a bit rum.

[Gadge]

All that would be needed is a 10 second cycle green light that gives cyclists a head start before the cars can move. A button on the light column to trigger it would be even better so it didn't come on when there is no need.

[Townleygreen]

Glemham posted: "Residents in nearby streets also have to cope with parking from staff and other school cars during term time ? just look at Calton Avenue ? again because there is little or no provision for staff parking at Alleyns.

Southwark should carry out a traffic and parking survey in term time and the holiday period in this area to determine the true extent of the problem."

Would you like a CPZ then?

There IS parking for staff at Alleyn's - maybe about 40-50 spaces? That's not little or none is it? They would have put in more but Southwark wouldn't allow it.

JAGs is losing many of its parking spaces as they're going to be building a Music School in that area, so more pressur eon local roads. I suggest you ask for a CPZ!!

[DadOf4]

Townleygreen Wrote:

> I suggest you ask for a CPZ!!

Nooooooooooooooooooooo - please not

[holymoly]

It is disappointing that DulwichSaferRoutes is advocating the current proposal in full and not looking for a consultation that will actually improve it for everyone - pedestrians, cyclists, public transport users, residents etc alike. These plans will not make things safer, deter or divert rat-running car journeys nor deter local car journeys. Our local streets are used by locals - children on bikes AND walking to school, because it is considered 'safer' than many other local routes. How does the increased traffic this proposal will create make things safer.

DulwichSaferRoutes will get better support for a safer route for all if they are open to consultation with other groups who know the area well. The current proposal as drafted will make things worse. See DSR position at:

http://dulwichsaferoutes.blogspot.co.uk/

[@Woodwarde]

New traffic Monitoring Cables have appeared at:

Dulwich Village lights

Gilkes Crescent

Top end of Carlton Ave

Near Alleyns pedestrian gate on Townley; also at Townely near the Lordship Lane end

Top end of Beauval Rd

Mid way down Dovercourt (Townley Rd side)/Also on Court Lane side of Dovercourt

Druce

Desenfans

Dekker

Bottom end of Court Lane near Dekker

Mid way along Woodwarde

Unfortunately this has the effect of appearing to post rationalise the proposal. Not checked further up Court Lane or other roads yet. Others of you may have done so.

[Jennys]

I would guess that Alleyns and Jags schools have several hundred teaching and support staff between them, many of whom will need to drive to work. Forty or fifty parking spaces on site will not go very far to meet their needs.Ideally they would indeed walk or cycle to work or use public transport but that would perhaps be difficult if they are carting textbooks, marking etc around.

[Townleygreen]

Not "several hundred" Jennys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe 140 teachers and another 35 support staff at Alleyns.

They can't provide more parking spaces because the Southwark planners won't let them! The area between the Astro and Townley could take perhaps 30-40 cars but you can't do that on green spaces.

CPZ, Jennys??

[edhistory]

Townleygreen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not "several hundred" Jennys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Maybe 140 teachers and another 35 support staff at

> Alleyns.

>

> They can't provide more parking spaces because the

> Southwark planners won't let them! The area

> between the Astro and Townley could take perhaps

> 30-40 cars but you can't do that on green spaces.

>

> CPZ, Jennys??

Townleygreen,

Do you have an Alleyn's connection?

John K

[Townleygreen]

That would be telling!

[edhistory]

Not me.

Your assertions about parking cars on MOL are extremely odd.

Do you have access to documentation?

John K

[Not anonymous and who has a property just over 50 metres from the crossing]

[Townleygreen]

"Your assertions about parking cars on MOL are extremely odd. "

Not odd at all. the school - I believe (!!) was pushing hard for those parking spaces on MOL but Southwark said it couldn't happen. I guess there was no educational justification for it, so no point in appealing to the Sec of State.

Why do you think it odd?

[edhistory]

Cars parks now exist in the Dulwich College grounds (the newish one next to the San), Belair Park (big and ugly), Peckham Rye Commmon (recently "enlarged and improved") all on MOL.

Why do you believe what you believe? Have you seen documentation or is it something someone once told you?

Is it now as you say a "guess"?

John K

[Townleygreen]

I have it on the highest authority, though I haven't seen documentation.

[Townleygreen]

Perhaps Southwark weren't keen to grant permission once they'd had to concede over the new theatre being built on MOL?

[edhistory]

So it's the Tui slogan

Something someone once told you.

Not good enough.

[Townleygreen]

Too bad mate

[edhistory]

Townleygreen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Too bad mate

Townleygreen has not adduced any evidence to support the assertion that as Alleyns' has designated Metropolitan Open Land this cannot be used to park vehicles.

The use of the margins of Alleyns playing fields for school coach parking, and sharing a this with JAGS, would make a major improvement to the junction at its busiest times.

An opportunity for Alleyns to make a contribution to the good of the local community.