Consultation on ?improving? the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale

[Zebedee Tring]

Spot on, spider69 and mikeb. There have already been comments on this thread about the potential increased danger at the LL/Townley Road junction. And I don't see why cyclists can't dismount at junctions where they feel threatened.

Of course cyclists have never been known to jump the red light - all cyclists always ride in a safe manner(irony alert).

[yourmomma]

Spider69 the problem is not the nervousness of cyclists but the dangerous maneuvers of car drivers. I'm a very confident cyclist and use that junction every day but if a car decides to turn across me what am I supposed to do?

[yourmomma]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spot on, spider69 and mikeb. There have already

> been comments on this thread about the potential

> increased danger at the LL/Townley Road junction.

> And I don't see why cyclists can't dismount at

> junctions where they feel threatened.

>

> Of course cyclists have never been known to jump

> the red light - all cyclists always ride in a safe

> manner(irony alert).

Why should cyclists dismount? They have as much right to use the road as other road users. I doubt you'd advocate smaller cars taking different routes to allow faster/bigger cars to use a motorway.

[nunhead_man]

Yeah - absolutely - I think all those "cyclists get off and walk" signs should be replaced with ones that say "motorists get out and push"

yourmomma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Zebedee Tring Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> Why should cyclists dismount? They have as much

> right to use the road as other road users. I doubt

> you'd advocate smaller cars taking different

> routes to allow faster/bigger cars to use a

> motorway.

[@Woodwarde]

A number of us are considering raising a petition in order to be able to show the strength of concerns. Is anyone else considering this and if so are you setting up anything online?

[bawdy-nan]

Couldn't the dangers to cyclists be addressed by phased lighting? Either a cyclists go light or the lights from Greendale operating separately? Might delay the traffic a little but better than the proposal, surely?

[ed_pete]

That's already been suggested and is partly included in the proposals already.

[@Woodwarde]

Note the piece from Nov 21st Dulwich and South London Press attributed to Alleyns and JAGS.

[edhistory]

Why is Mark Williams, alleged to be a Lambeth Council Cabinet member, speaking about a road junction in Southwark?

[@Woodwarde]

See minutes which explain a personal motivation:

http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/draft-mins-of-mtg-SC-September-10th-2014.pdf

3) Guest: Councillor Mark Williams, cabinet member for Transport, Regeneration and Planning, said that Southwark Labour had been elected on a manifesto to support cycling and it was his job to deliver that. The Kickstarter project had brought cycling experts from Denmark and Holland to inspire and open eyes of officers from every department to the value of cycling for public health, improved air quality and personal well-being.

[minder]

Why do cyclists jump red lights? Happened a few times to me. #They just seem to saunter through.

As a pedestrian, you get the green light. Suddenly you get a cyclist coming at you and they pass by as if nothing has happened even though they've nearly knocked you flying! Happened to me (yet again) from a woman on a bike at the junction at Camberwell Nandos. She was totally oblivious to me or anyone else and looked like she had some kind of earphones on too.

Do cyclists have any kind of insurance?

[@Woodwarde]

You need to come along and speak up. Prepare for this consultation by the Dulwich Community Council on Dec 3rd:

The Dulwich Community Council meeting is at 7 pm on Wednesday December 3 at Christ Church Barry Road

Now is the time to make your voice heard.

If you are a Melbourne, Townley Rd, East Dulwich Grove, Beauval Rd, Village, Dovercourt Rd, Woodwarde Rd, Gilkes Crescent, Carton Rd, Melbourne Grove resident or business - petition your view to all councillors in Dulwich Ward and East Dulwich ward and to the Southwark consultation itself or this will be rail-roaded through.

This needs an all party view and some common sense options to ensure safety for children, cyclists and pedestrians but not with an unnecessary and major traffic restriction. Our voice is one of pedestrians, cyclists, road users and schools - all valid perspectives that need to be accommodated. Where is the evidence base for the changes proposed and the options considered. We can be constructive in this resolution as long as the evaluation is thorough. Transparency on the evidence base and consultation process is in serious question.

[BrandNewGuy]

Thank you @Woodwarde for your contributions. To the point and indicative of how interest groups can railroad us into change if the rest of us do nothing. Get involved, people, find out the facts and let the Council know what *you* think.

[bawdy-nan]

The safety of pupils should be important but focussing on the safety of Jags and Alleyns at that junction will have a knock on effect of forcing traffic to Calton ave/Woodwarde/Court Lane /Dulwuch Village junction which is already very busy and dangerous at school in/out time for the Hamlet /Infants and also forcing traffic to the Townley Road /Ll junction (and the new Harris).

One might also suggest to Alleyns and Jags that if their concern for Road Safety is so intense they might pay some attention to where their coaches park on Townley. Currently it's s horror for cyclists especially at the time when children are most likely to be cycling to school.

[rch]

@woodwarde, have you requested to make a deputation at the DCC on the 3rd? I don't think this scheme is due to be considered until the Jan DCC, but it might be useful to make a deputation now so that cllrs are aware of the community issues in advance. You'd have to request an emergency deputation now, but it might be worth it.

If you PM me your phone number, I can help to step you through this as I think that I've worked out most of the technicalities of this scheme and I know a lot of the background, so I can help you to understand what curveballs are likely to be thrown.

[nunhead_man]

minder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why do cyclists jump red lights? Happened a few

> times to me. #They just seem to saunter through.

_______________________________________________________

Why do car drivers and motor bikes and scooters jump red lights at 40mph (not "saunter") especially at zebra crossings and light controlled crossings?

As a pedestrian I've had to jump out of the way a number of times to avoid being killed.

[Zebedee Tring]

In the past Alleyns and JAGS have shown a singular indifference to the coach problem and have refused to use their land for parking. The only way to get them to change their minds would be to emphasise that pupils from THEIR schools (as opposed to any other schools) cycling along Townley Road are at risk.

[@Woodwarde]

I have now been made aware that other local streets have Residents Associations or are forming groups to formulate opinion. Is there such a group on Melbourne Grove? Private Message me if you have a group and want to link up and see if we have a common and constructive message that will help to take this forward.

I think the initial message in the short term must include a demand for a clearer and more representative consultation where the facts and assumptions are presented and the information informing the current proposal is made clear and is open for questioning. This means that the 12th December deadline must be extended and I think we should ask for a planned series of meetings where the full facts and supporting information is presented and addressed. Do others agree?

We may set up an online petition. It would be easier logistically to draw views together that way. It has been suggested to me that individual replies and a petition in combination will hold more weight.

For the individual replies, to ensure that comments are heard and addressed even if we are broadly in support of some of the safety changes, it seems that the options on the form would require you to OPPOSE and then ask for resolution of the issues raised in comments. Is that what others think/ are doing?

thanks for all insights.

[James Barber]

Hi @Woodwarde,

Melbourne Grove is part of the Vale Residents Association.

The Dulwich Community Council meeting that will discuss this scheme will be 28 January.

I'm very clear that Cllr Rosie Shimell and I will propose the right turn from Townley Road remain. I'm not sure a petition is required and always runs the risk of another petition being raised by schools with long lists of parents for the scheme as is. You really don't want to snatch defeat from what appears a compelling argument.

[@Woodwarde]

James thanks for the insight.

Are you aware of any broader schemes for Dulwich for further cycling developments we might also need to consider in the round?

[James Barber]

Hi @Woodwarde,

The only other schemes I'm aware of are cycle contraflow Overhill Road junction with Lordship Lane. Island buildout looks a little too big + Crystal Palace Parade which I believe will go out to consultation in the next week or so.

I believe these will also be presented at the 28 January Dulwich Community Council.

[@Woodwarde]

thanks James

If there were more major road developments proposed or being discussed by Southwark or TfL - where would you as a Councillor expect to look or find out about them?

Also, where does Southwark provide public details of the process it follows for consultations such as the one we are now looking at?

[@Woodwarde]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2teor8IgAASmYo.jpg

Ian Twinn ?@IanTwinn ? Nov 18

Idea @lb_southwark to close off East Dulwich Grove 4 local residents causing first citizen protest I've seen Dulwich

[@Woodwarde]

James/All

I asked how we would be made aware of other developments that might need to be considered in relation to the ED Grove/Townley Rd development. The response was none known but this seems untrue.

The current consultation document on this is misleading. It purports to be focused on safety issues. It is in fact part of a much larger Southwark initiative called the Southwark Spine. I feel that it is misleading that the consultation document does not flag this, as its evidence base should be part of a much larger evidence base, planning analysis and considerations.

Google 'Southwark Spine' but particularly look at the following link on the Southwark Cycling to Schools Partnership

www.southwark.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/9752/southwark_ctsp

You will see here that the intent is for the cycle route (road development aspects thereof not made clear) from Green Dale to pass down Townley and then it seems down Carlton Road. Is Carlton also to be turned into a one way road and cycle lane I find myself asking. Likewise, a route down Barry Road, crossing Lordship Lane, down Eyenella and into Dulwich Park, seems to suggest that we are about to face a further consultation at a junction very close to EDG/Townley. Is Eyenella to be restreicted in any way too?

I find myself asking why this is not being made transparent - makes it easier to railroad through perhaps. However, there are serious planning issues that residents need to be consulted on and that are known already and yet not shared.

Please PM me if you are intending to attend the Dulwich Community Meeting on the 3rd Dec or the 28th Jan as I do think we should ask for answers to an increasing array of questions. It would be preferable to start raising these on the 3rd Dec. In any case, I am responding to the current consultation document to express ongoing concern and the insufficient time allocated to it.

See announcement 14th Oct 2014 http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7895 ANOTHER CONSULTATION NOT TO MISS

The plans for a public consultation on the draft cycling strategy will be formally endorsed by the council's cabinet next week. Residents will be invited to comment on the document during November and December.The final strategy document will be adopted by cabinet in March next year. SO ARE WE invited to comment and who will be asked?

This looks like the decisions are being made without transparency - ED Grove and Townley seem to be predetermined in this plan which has 'yet' to be consulted.

Southwark Council - it's hard to see how we can as engaged residents work constructively with you. Nor indeed trust your methods.

I can see that the 3rd Dec Dulwich Community Council meeting has an agenda topic on Cycling Strategy - a rather last minute attempt to portray a meaningful consultation on a very serious set of changes for Dulwich.

Any views and again PM me if you are at the 3rd Dec meeting.

[edhistory]

Does this mean that the end-game is a very large roundabout with Townley Road, Calton Avenue (part) and Woodwarde Road becoming a one-way system?