Are there any material differences between Labour and the Tories?

[????]

Interesting...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/11270333/Labour-and-the-Tories-are-only-pretending-to-be-different.html

[miga]

.

[Otta]

If only people would stop voting red to avoid blue, and vice versa and actually just take the plunge and vote for the party they actually think are best, we might finally move away from these muppets.

[Millhaven]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If only people would stop voting red to avoid

> blue, and vice versa and actually just take the

> plunge and vote for the party they actually think

> are best, we might finally move away from these

> muppets.

Interesting. Do you really think that is what the problem is? I always thought the problem lay with the ones that don't bother voting at all. These past two or three elections I have almost yearned for an benign dictatorship. A fantasy of course, but I hate the way things are now and feel totally disengaged with this country's political landscape.

[Otta]

Well yes, if lots of non voters voted that would make a huge difference to. But I do believe that loads of people like the idea of, say, The Green Party, but when it comes down to it they go for red or blue because they're trying to keep the other one out.

[Millhaven]

Yes, fair point.

[Townleygreen]

That's not going to happen until we get proportional representation. Coz that means you vote for the party you believe in. First past the post only works with two parties. We now have at least 5 in most places. The result is therefore totally unpreditable in many cases.

[david_carnell]

Otta - interesting personal account here.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/03/leaving-labour-green-party-social-change

[Otta]

Yeah I read that yesterday, and for me this

"Unwilling to take a principled stand on such fundamental issues, they prefer to take a populist position in the hope of winning a few more votes."

Is the saddest line in there.

[alice]

democracy is over-rated - short term strategies to keep the voters - a benevolent dictatorship led by a philosopher queen/ king anyone?

[????]

the pandering of the Tories and Labour to a UKIP set agenda is one of the most depressing thing in politics of the past few years....and that's saying something.

[david_carnell]

I thought you didn't like sneering at white van man?

Now pandering to him is depressing?

[El Pibe]

"democracy is over-rated"

the strength of democracy is stability, brought about not in spite of the lack of room for political manoeuvre endemic to appealing to the lowest common denominator and appeasing short term goals with tinkering, but because of it.

It does come at the const of basically annoying ALL of the electorate.

The inherent deanger is of course that it can turn people off the political process giving more sway to those who DO engage.

Given a choice between the paralysis of proportional representation and the sine wave toing and froing of two party systems, I'm afraid i can't be arsed to decide ;)

The problem with benevolent dictatorship (and i know it was mostly tongue in cheek) is that it's entirely dependendent on the continued benevolence of the rul(er/ing clique) and of course succession is a fraught business.

Plus, you know, trading in a sense of powerlesness in a political system that can't do too much harm, to a sense of powerlessness in a political system that can do what it wants....

All that said the Chinese seem to have been making a pretty good stab at it for the last 30 years or so, though they've solved the stability and succession issues by creating a two faction system where they hand over power every 10 years....uncanny :D

[????]

I don't like sneering at anyone . It's a very metroplitan habit which I do my best to avoid (although it's hard with hypocritical Guardianistas for example)

So all white Van drivesr are UKIP voters? You're generalising and stereotyping and being very metropilitan....*that* particular one didn't even vote for example

[Otta]

Oh come on Quids, I know you think I'm guilty of lazy social media stuff (I am at times), but don't claim that you're above stereotyping.

The thread that you started about that whole episode was called something like "what Labour really think of white working classes". That means that YOU saw that photo of a white van and an England flag (and a West Ham flag), and YOU immediately pictured white working class, and I'm guessing copy of the Sun.

And that is perfectly normal, I'm not attacking you for it, but you're not above it.

[StraferJack]

Problem with current democracy

"The impact of the lack of reform is felt by the public. People need better services, have higher expectations, but as any politician can tell you, they don?t want to pay more for them. So the absence of reform, particularly in an era of tight budgets, is immensely challenging. Thus you have the curious paradox of modern leadership: There has to be reform to satisfy rising public demands, but the public can be easily mobilized to oppose those reforms. Therefore politicians often back off the change, which then increases voters? disillusionment with the political process."

From a very good article in ny times today. By... Erm... Blair

[El Pibe]

i think i put it better frankly ;)

[El Pibe]

But yeah, it's no great revelation that people say 'ooh yeah i'd pay more for better serivces' and then vote with their pocket....EVERY....TIME....

and it's not getting better in this downloads for free, tax payers not citizens, rights not responsiblities, cake and eat it culture of ours.

anyway, thanks for your great insight blair, now please, once and for all, retire from the public eye with whatever grace you may have left (a clue....none...espeecially after *that* card)

 

[red devil]

Can we leave Mary Berry's soggy bottom out of this please...

[Otta]

I wonder how 1997 Blair would feel if a time traveller took him a selection of articles about his time in power and since. I never voted for him, but I didn't think he'd end up a figure of hate like he has.

[miga]

.

[????]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Problem with current democracy

>

> "The impact of the lack of reform is felt by the

> public. People need better services, have higher

> expectations, but as any politician can tell you,

> they don?t want to pay more for them. So the

> absence of reform, particularly in an era of tight

> budgets, is immensely challenging. Thus you have

> the curious paradox of modern leadership: There

> has to be reform to satisfy rising public demands,

> but the public can be easily mobilized to oppose

> those reforms. Therefore politicians often back

> off the change, which then increases voters?

> disillusionment with the political process."

>

>

> From a very good article in ny times today. By...

> Erm... Blair

And a very tory position, to some degree. Vested interests of all sorts fight reform of public services or changing how, who and what they deliver in the 21st Century World with its challenges and demographics. We need new solutions not just more money (and their ain't enough anyway without a massive across the board hike in taxes).

[Otta]

I just read this and wish I hadn't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30327717