Jump to content

Recommended Posts

legalbeagle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think a person would get far reporting a rape on the basis they were tipsy. But "drunk" is

> a very difficult area.


Which is why your first post was hyperbole worthy of one of the more barkingly mad Guardian opinion writers, but your second post showed that the law in this area is fiendishly grey. 'Too drunk to consent' not anywhere near the same as 'drunk'.


Unless you wish to brand 99% of sexually active adults in this country (including, in all likelihood, yourself) a sexual offender.

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here is some bedtime reading on what constitutes

> consent when drunk:

>

> http://www.trinitinture.com/documents/wallerstein.pdf


I like reading legal stuff more than most people, but that is probably more than even I can take. Even the final summary was hard work.

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not yet.

>

> But I have briefly woken up when I was comatose at

> a friend's party with a dickhead I wouldn't have

> even spat on, on top of me when I was about 22.


I did once (a long time ago) have a girlfriend tell me the following morning we had sex the previous (very drunken) evening. I had absolutely no memory of it.

It's funny that taking someone's property without consent is seen as automatically bad and the perps should rightly be punished, but taking someone's body for sex without consent is a grey area.


If she's not an actively willing participant, wtf are you going there for anyway?


And being drunk is no defence. If you rob a petrol station, tanked up on booze, you won't be let off just because you were drunk.



It's funny that taking someone's property without consent is seen as automatically bad and the perps should rightly be punished, but taking someone's body for sex without consent is a grey area.


If she's not an actively willing participant, wtf are you going there for anyway?



I don't believe anyone has argued otherwise. Are you setting up some sort of strawman here?

Myself mainly (This was in response to Loz asking who I was talking to).


It just pisses me off. I grew up in the late 70's/80's in Birkenhead. The neanderthal's I had to deal with make Evans look like a gentleman.


I hate that attitudes about this kind of shit have moved so little since those days.


And your comment doesn't even come close, nice try though.

It's an interesting one, LD isn't it? Can you imagine saying:


Well, you were a bit pissed so it's no surprise he punched you and took your wallet; or

Well, they did have slack stock control so it's no surprise you stole a few bits from work.....


But we hear, quite frequently, "Well he/she was drunk and went back to their room. What did they THINK was going to happen?"


The fact that a victim's actions might either make a crime easier to commit, or attract a criminal in no way makes the crime less awful or the criminal less culpable. Nor does it mean that the victim is to blame.


I think sexual offences are one of the few areas of crime where we still do often (not always) find victim-blaming going on to some extent.

Otta - It's not that most student sex is rape. It's that there is a point of drunkenness, at which a person is no longer able to give consent, and that point will vary from person to person.


It's your obligation to have a reasonable belief that the person you are having sex with is consenting to it.


Where they are drunk, and there is no other information to go on - eg you know them well, they are your girlfriend, you've had sex before, they went on a date with you and came back to your room - then it is harder for you to establish a reasonable belief that they consented to sex when drunk.


I suspect this is why the man who had sex with Evans's victim first was not convicted - there was additional evidence as to her and his state of mind that lead the court to think she did consent. The fact that they went on a date, both drank lots voluntarily, she agreed to go back to his room, they went through the hotel public entrances etc. (I'm not saying that doing all of this with a person means they cannot rape you, just that it is evidence adduced in court to establish your state of mind and whether it was reasonable to think you had consented).


With Evans it was sneak in, shag, hide on the way out. That left him only with "I thought she agreed" and the court decided that there was not sufficient evidence of consent given her level of drunkenness.


Not all sex while drunk is rape. Not at all. But establishing someone's true intentions when they are drunk and you do not know them is not easy. I think that's the point.

Thanks LB. A well written and easy to understand summary (for me anyway).


legalbeagle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta - It's not that most student sex is rape.

> It's that there is a point of drunkenness, at

> which a person is no longer able to give consent,

> and that point will vary from person to person.

>

> It's your obligation to have a reasonable belief

> that the person you are having sex with is

> consenting to it.

>

> Where they are drunk, and there is no other

> information to go on - eg you know them well, they

> are your girlfriend, you've had sex before, they

> went on a date with you and came back to your room

> - then it is harder for you to establish a

> reasonable belief that they consented to sex when

> drunk.

>

> I suspect this is why the man who had sex with

> Evans's victim first was not convicted - there was

> additional evidence as to her and his state of

> mind that lead the court to think she did consent.

> The fact that they went on a date, both drank lots

> voluntarily, she agreed to go back to his room,

> they went through the hotel public entrances etc.

> (I'm not saying that doing all of this with a

> person means they cannot rape you, just that it is

> evidence adduced in court to establish your state

> of mind and whether it was reasonable to think you

> had consented).

>

> With Evans it was sneak in, shag, hide on the way

> out. That left him only with "I thought she

> agreed" and the court decided that there was not

> sufficient evidence of consent given her level of

> drunkenness.

>

> Not all sex while drunk is rape. Not at all. But

> establishing someone's true intentions when they

> are drunk and you do not know them is not easy. I

> think that's the point.

Isn't this one of the reasons why so few rapes lead to a conviction still? It's not just one person's word against another: at the less violent end of the scale it can be a stand-off between their recollections of what happened when drunk, filtered through a subsequently sober brain and their non-drunk beliefs.


Men can be victims as well as perpetrators. Last time I saw stats, reported rapes in England and Wales, victims were something like 85k women and 12k men.

Lots of reasons why rape convictions are so low Robert. And of course men can be victims too, no one would argue otherwise.


There's a really good article on it here: http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2014/02/28/revealed-why-the-police-are-failing-most-rape-victims/

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If a woman is shit faced and a guy takes advantage

> to empty his nuts, he's a rapist.

>

> There are lots of them around.



This is how I read the law and had some arguments with friends over it


Trying to get a girl drunk in hope she might is heading right there.

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am a bit troubled by this I have to say. Most

> student sex could be called rape by the sounds of

> it. Does it make any difference how much the male

> has had to drink?



a lot of students in the 80s would have hit it yes - as they'd never met before they ended up drunk in a party/bed - of course somebody has to complain.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Latest Discussions

    • Per Cllr McAsh, as quoted above: “We are currently updating our Enforcement Policy and changes will allow for the issuing of civil penalties ranging from £175 to £300 for visible smoke emissions, replacing the previous reliance on criminal prosecution. " Is anyone au fait with the Clean Air Act 1993, and  particularly with the state of 'Smoke Control' law and practice generally?  I've just been looking  through some of it for the first time and, afaics, the civil penalties mentioned  were introduced into the Clean Air Act, at Schedule 1A, in May 2022.  So it seems that, in this particular,  it's a matter of the enforcement policy trailing well behind the legislation.  I'm not criticising that at all, but am curious.  
    • Here's the part of march46's linked-to Southwark News article pertaining to Southwark Council. "Southwark Council were also contacted for a response. "Councillor James McAsh, Cabinet Member for Clean Air, Streets & Waste said: “One of Southwark’s key priorities is to create a healthy environment for our residents. “To achieve this we closely monitor legislation and measures that influence air pollution – our entire borough apart from inland waterways is designated as a Smoke Control Area, and we also offer substantial provision for electric vehicles to promote alternative fuel travel options and our Streets for People strategy. “We as a council support the work of Mums for Lungs and recognise the health and environmental impacts of domestic solid fuel burning, particularly from wood-burning appliances. “We are currently updating our Enforcement Policy and changes will allow for the issuing of civil penalties ranging from £175 to £300 for visible smoke emissions, replacing the previous reliance on criminal prosecution.  “This work is being undertaken in collaboration with other London boroughs as part of the pan-London Wood Burning Project, which aims to harmonise enforcement approaches and share best practice across the capital.” ETA: And here's a post I made a few years ago, with tangential relevance.  https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/278140-early-morning-drone-flying/?do=findComment&comment=1493274  
    • The solicitor is also the Executor. Big mistake, but my Aunt was very old, and this was the Covid years and shortly after so impossible to intervene and get a couple of close relatives to do this.  She had no children so this is the nephews and nieces. He is a single practitioner, and most at his age would have long since retired - there is a question over his competence Two letters have already gone essentially complaining - batted off and 'amusingly' one put the blame on us. There are five on our side, all speaking to each other, and ideally would work as a single point of contact.  But he has said that this is not allowed - we've all given approval to act on each others behalf. There are five on her late husband's side, who have not engaged with us despite the suggestion to work as a team, There is one other, who get's the lion's share, the typicical 'friend', but we are long since challenging the will. I would like to put another complaint together that he has not used modern collective communication (I expect that he is incapable) which had seriously delayed the execution of the will.   I know many in their 80s very adept with smart phones so that is not an ageist comment. The house has deteriorated very badly, with cold, damp and a serious leak.  PM me if you want to see the dreadful condition that it is now in. I would also question why if the five of us are happy to work together why all of us need to confirm in writing.             The house was lived in until Feb 23, and has been allowed to get like this.
    • Isn’t a five yearly electricity safety certificate one of the things the landlord must give for a legal tenancy?
Home
Events
Sign In

Sign In



Or sign in with one of these services

Search
×
    Search In
×
×
  • Create New...