Cycling Quietway - E&C to Crystal Palace Consultation

[DaveR]

The Standard article is a good example of how piecemeal changes do as much harm as good, and also how small numbers of vocal activists can force through changes against the will of (or at least without the support of) a more passive majority.

However, if you read the Guardian article and click through to a previous article about the history of the cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands, you'll find that this is exactly how it was achieved - comparatively small numbers of activists capturing the political processes and forcing through changes, the benefits of which were only felt once comprehensive routes were in place.

The basic policy question is a simple one - should we try as far as possible to accommodate everybody who wants to use the road, whatever the mode of transport, or should we prioritise some over others? And specifically walking, cycling and public transport over cars? If you are a motorist egalitarian (to coin a phrase) then you're never going to agree with measures that make driving more difficult. I doubt, however, that this represents the majority view. Most people recognise the many and obvious reasons why trying to reduce urban car use is likely to be beneficial.

On that basis, my real objection to the Standard article is this bit:

" ?Motorists? are mothers, workers, midwives, van delivery drivers and carers, taxi and bus drivers, all performing vital trips for which bicycles, buses and trains simply aren?t always suited."

It is of course true that some motorists fall into these 'virtuous' categories, but how many? What proportion? It's certainly way short of 100%, and I suspect well under 50%. So how do you find out how many motorists are engaged on trips for which another mode of transport may in fact be ideally suited? Bluntly, you need to alter the incentives i.e. make it more difficult and inconvenient to drive and easier to travel a different way. But that only works if it's done systematically across the city - and that's the real lesson. Incremental and unco-ordinated change is largely ineffective and just makes people complain. If we're going to get real benefits more change is required, not less.

[Gipsy Hill]

The cycle ?Quiteway? consultations covering Gipsy Road/Gipsy Hill/Crystal Palace are on the boundary of Lambeth and Southwark. Both Southwark and Lambeth are running consultations:

Southwark Open Day Event - Kingsdale Foundation School

Alleyn Park, Dulwich

London SE21 8SQ

Saturday 27 February, 2016 at 9:00 AM - 12:00 PM

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/dulwich-wood-avenue-to-farquhar-road/events/open-day-event-kingsdale-foundation-school

Lambeth Consultation - Proposed changes in Lambeth - Gipsy Hill area

? Clive Road/Hamilton Road

? Paxton Place/Gipsy Road

? Gipsy Hill

Runs from 10 Feb 2016 to 17 Mar 2016

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cycling/lambeth-q7-gh

Southwark Consultation - Proposed changes in Southwark- Gipsy Hill/Crystal Palace area

? Gipsy Hill

? Dulwich Wood Avenue

? Farquhar Road

Runs from 17 Feb 2016 to 13 Mar 2016

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/dulwich-wood-avenue-to-farquhar-road

? FAQ document, 45.1 kB (PDF document)

? Map of whole Q7 route, 298.1 kB (PDF document)

? Cycle position information, 4.5 MB (JPEG image)

? Dulwich Wood Avenue and Farquhar Road consultation document, 238.1 kB (PDF document)

? Dulwich Wood Avenue and Farquhar Road proposal plan, 213.7 kB (PDF document)

? Dulwich Wood Avenue and Farquhar Road consultation area, 547.4 kB (PDF document)

Southwark Key Dates:

Open day event - Dulwich Library Hall

Tue 23 Feb 2016

Open day event - Kingsdale Foundation School

Sat 27 Feb 2016

Open day event - Nelly?s Nursery

Sat 5 Mar 2016

[slarti b]

Just a reminder about the Open Day event tomorrow to present plans for Quietway 7 through Southwark. These have been arranged at pretty short notice so people may not be aware of them.

I have concerns about the proposed changes to Dulwich Village junction, particularly the changed priority at Court Lane\Calton Avenue. From the consultation web site http://tinyurl.com/gmosp3v it is unclear whether the meeting cover the whole route or just individual sections but I will go along anyway.

Open day event - Kingsdale Foundation School

Sat 27 Feb 2016 9:00 AM - 12:00 PM

[richard tudor]

Why is it that many of these consultation days always seem to be a short notice?

The Bellenden Road Consultation was the same.

Bad communication and even bad sign posting of the open days. Signs in out of the way positions and no information from local Cllrs.

Accept that Southwark has a plan they want to push through all over the Borough and lack of communication works in their favour and those in the loop pushing the party line.

Get used to it

[slarti b]

I went to the consultation meeting at Kingsdale on Saturday. Not well signed and not many people there but some good discussions. Event was "hosted" by a couple of Conway AECOM traffic engineers. No-one from Southwark council there which I find odd.

Key points we discussed:

- Conway/AECOM guys confirmed that there has been NO modelling of the effect of the proposed changes to priorities at the Dulwich Junction. They seemed to feel a full traffic review of the junction and surrounding streets would have been better but this was not within their brief. This is likely to affect residents of Dekker and Desenfans in particular.

- Changing the priority of Calton\Court Lane will mean large number of motor vehicles turning right into Court Lane across path of Quietways cyclists. Really dangerous.

- The dog-leg crossings of Calton and Turney could get crowded (will double buggies be able to pass each other?) but this could be remedied by putting up railings. I pointed out the irony that this would create the same layout as the cattle pens that have been removed from EDG\Townley road junction.

- The southern end of the Quietway, going along Gypsy Road\Hill, Dulwich Wood Ave and Farquar is not at all cycle friendly, 3 right turns across traffic and steep hills.

Several people pointed out that the overall route through just doesn't make sense; cylists wont use it because it is longer and is through streets such as Turney\Hamilton\Gypsy Roads which are busy and\or have a lot of residential parking.

Concensus was a route from Dulwich Village down College Road and the up Fountains Drive or Hunt Slip Road\Alleyn Park was much better. It avoids residential roads so any parking changes will have minimal impact, is much more direct and pleasant to cycle and goes close to several major schools (Kingsdale, Dulwich College, Ducks, Dulwich Prep etc). That route would be MUCH better suited to achieve the objectives of the Quietway.

But, ever since the shambolic Sustrans sessions last year we have been told the route itself is not up for consultation.

What a shame and waste of public money.

It seems the council is trying to push this through with a very short consultation period and tight deadlines for a complex scheme which will significantly effect our neighbourhood. Please read the documents and respond to the consultation if you have time, otherwise you could write to your local councillor, aksing for the consultation period to be extended so all residents affected have time to consider the Quietway scheme fully.

The scheme will also be discussed at the next Dulwich Community Council meeting on (I think) 15 March.

Edited to add That I found the AECOM Conway guys were open and helpful in explaining the scheme and willing to listen to comments and suggestions. Whether this attitude will be reflected in the consultation conclusion I will wait to see!

[spider69]

Same MO as all road consultations.

They want they will get it.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Thanks slarti b, a really helpful summary. I hope that the route may be reconsidered, but sounds like it's unlikely.

[mikeb]

Whilst it is a much better route, College Road is a private road owned by the College. I don't think working with the council to facilitate children's cycling to school is part of their charitable mission - maybe they would even start levying tolls on cyclists...

[slarti b]

@MikeB

A good point re Dulwich Estate and something I had considered. However, the AECOM guys seemed to think that the Estate had expressed their willingness to consider the route. I don't know how far any discussions went but it seems a missed opportunity if it has been dismissed.

[wulfhound]

There are a couple of problems from a Quietways perspective with College Road.

Firstly how do you join it up to Calton Avenue? I mean - I cycle through the Village all the time, but I'm not the type to need a designated route. The bit from the Calton junction to the gallery can be kind of dicey.

The other problem is, where do they go at the top? Personally reckon that allowing cyclists on the Park side pavement from there up as far as the Crystal Palace bus terminus wouldn't be the end of the world (great big pavement with essentially zero pedestrians), but that's Bromley's land and I can't see them ever allowing it.

The other alternative, if the Dulwich Estate decide don't want to play ball, is to use the existing South Circular cycle track along to Alleyn Park, then up Bowen Drive through the Kingswood. There's an existing, albeit never used, cycle track on Dulwich Wood Park (no.3 bus route) that runs most of the way from Kingswood up to Farquhar Road - if they fixed that & joined it up to the other stuff, they might even get some actual cyclists using it.

- Changing the priority of Calton\Court Lane will mean large number of motor vehicles turning right into Court Lane across path of Quietways cyclists. Really dangerous.

That's not so much different to how it is now, though. I mean, either way without a much bolder intervention (fat chance of that) there's going to be a conflicting turning movement there. Only ways to avoid that are more radical traffic reduction at Court Lane (personally would support that 100%, but I'm probably the only one here), or sending the Quietway down some more "Southwark Spine"-ish alignment, down Woodwarde Road and through the park.

IMO the new layout (Calton having priority) is slightly better, at least the onus isn't on supposedly novice cyclists to be looking in four directions at once to get from Calton to the junction.

- The dog-leg crossings of Calton and Turney could get crowded (will double buggies be able to pass each other?) but this could be remedied by putting up railings. I pointed out the irony that this would create the same layout as the cattle pens that have been removed from EDG\Townley road junction.

If any council or TfL bod seriously suggests putting in pedestrian cages as part of a cycling scheme, I'm organising a whip-round to buy them a Japanese ceremonial sword.

- The southern end of the Quietway, going along Gypsy Road\Hill, Dulwich Wood Ave and Farquar is not at all cycle friendly, 3 right turns across traffic and steep hills.

The hills are unavoidable around there, but Gipsy Hill itself can certainly be avoided. Ever since this route was first announced, I've been trying to convince the council to look at routing along Dulwich Wood Ave or through the green instead (they are hell bent on the Rosendale Rd & Turney Rd routing). People do cycle up Gipsy Hill, a surprising number actually, but it's hardly suitable for the supposed novice users these routes were once intended to attract.

Concensus was a route from Dulwich Village down College Road and the up Fountains Drive or Hunt Slip Road\Alleyn Park was much better. It avoids residential roads so any parking changes will have minimal impact, is much more direct and pleasant to cycle and goes close to several major schools (Kingsdale, Dulwich College, Ducks, Dulwich Prep etc). That route would be MUCH better suited to achieve the objectives of the Quietway.

Am inclined to agree (although I do think they should look at Bowen Drive instead of / as well as Alleyn Park), but how would people feel about losing all the parking through the Village on one side of the road? The Village would surely need a segregated cycleway to attract new users and school kids?