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Cycling Quietway - E&C to Crystal Palace Consultation


Jezza

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@Woodwarde Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Your last chance to comment on the Sustrans led

> consultation for interventions on the Quietway is

> this coming Saturday.

>

> Sat 26 Sep 2015 11.00-13.00 St Barnabas Parish

> Hall, entrance Gilkes Place SE21

> See here for 4 pre-designed options that were

> provided at the meeting for discussion. These are

> clearly positioned as not being fixed ideas but

> they may indicate the direction of thought on the

> scale of the challenge:

> http://turneyandburbage.org.uk/2015/09/24/dulwich-

> village-junction-possible-redesigns-photos-of-draw

> ings-for-discussion/

> You will see some radical change suggested, for

> example for Court Lane to become one way.



Well worth going then - one way streets would have a dramatic knowck on effect. Dulwich is what it is, with the limited street plan available.


Perhaps rethink the Quietway route.........


11am it is then to join the workshop discussions today

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Copied from the Townley thread but central to this thread.

Note the meeting this coming Saturday - to focus on a preferred option. Whose preferred option one may ask.....



Tessmo:

Hello, Richard Tudor. The second Sustrans workshop on Saturday was a general introductory one again - the same as the first one - and people were invited to put symbols on maps to show where they'd like pedestrian crossings, etc. The four TfL designs for the junction of Court Lane/Dulwich Village were presented again - all giving priority to Calton Avenue, and two making Court Lane one way. It was stressed that these TfL designs were only the first stage, to help discussion - but how four designs that were essentially the same was supposed to help discussion I'm not sure.


The 'concept design workshop' which looks at everything people have said so far, and tries to narrow down the options, is this Saturday 3 October from 1pm to 3pm at St Barnabas CHURCH (not parish hall) in Calton Avenue, SE21 7DG. As far as I'm aware, you can still turn up and object to the whole process if you want to. As someone at Saturday's meeting said, the Court Lane/Dulwich Village junction is key. If, for example, Calton Avenue is given the priority, so it becomes a much more attractive short cut for cars, fiddling about with pedestrian crossings is all a waste of time.

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If we want to get people cycling, we need secure parking (especially at tube stations), and some proper road closures. I would love to see one or two key routes being identified, linking to key transport interchanges, secure parking and relevant road closures - you know, some joined up, properly planned, strategic interventions. Instead, it's always a bit of paint and some random tinkering.
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@ rahrahrah - if the Champion Hill road closure goes ahead, this will be a pretty nice cycle route from the north side of Dulwich Village to the Overground at Denmark Hill. There's been talk of another QW running from the top of Green Dale to Brixton tube station via Ruskin Park & Loughborough Junction, but that depends on what happens with all the road closures in LJ - whether people adjust, or have them taken out.
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It is already a pretty nice cycle route as it is, with pedestrians using the pavement, cars and cycles co-existing on the road together.


They have always existed together and traffic flows work well. I have used this route for almost 69 years and it has never been a problem. Both as a car user, cyclist and pedestrian. Perhaps the new breed of biker should grow up and and take a bit of responsibility for their own safety and not keep passing it on to others.


If you or they cannot manage a very short piece of road when you come from Greendale to Champion hill you or they should not be on the road.













Why this great need to change things just because you ride a bike.

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The Greendale route is already a quietway and can be used without problem by children, older folks and women at the moment and this has always been the case.


What gets up my nose is the idea to make Champion Hill one way. Why? it does not represent any danger regarding road users and never has. I moved there is 1958 with my family and cannot recall any traffic problems or accidents over the years to now.


Traffic has not grown in such volume that things needs to be done. All that is happening is this is today!s idea which is taken up by certain sections of the community like a holy quest.


I am all for change for the better but not for no good reason and a one way system is not required to alter a safe stretch of road to achieve a glow of sainthood.


The last time Southwark did anything was to put in traffic islands down to Denmark Hill which only made the road narrower. They were not ever needed.


So please do not keep flogging a dead horse over the Greendale quietway and how nice it is, it has always existed, always been nice, always been used by all and has been blocked off to cars for many many years. In fact many children learnt to cycle on this bit dirt road which it was in my day and was open to all traffic.


Champion Hill is used by all manner of pedestrian and wheeled transport without any problems and does not have a great volume of traffic that would cause a problem to anybody.


As I mentioned before if people cannot use the short stretch of road that is Champion Hill they should not be on the road.

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wulfhound Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @ rahrahrah - if the Champion Hill road closure

> goes ahead, this will be a pretty nice cycle route

> from the north side of Dulwich Village to the

> Overground at Denmark Hill. There's been talk of

> another QW running from the top of Green Dale to

> Brixton tube station via Ruskin Park &

> Loughborough Junction, but that depends on what

> happens with all the road closures in LJ - whether

> people adjust, or have them taken out.


what's missing though (especially with the Brixton route) is somewhere safe to leave your bike at the other end. With SE London virtually written out of the tube network, the least we should expect is some properly secure bike parking at E&C, Oval, Kennington and Brixton. something along the lines of the facilities at Finsbury Park. I would make this the priority for cycle investment personally.

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spider69 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Greendale route is already a quietway and can

> be used without problem by children, older folks

> and women at the moment and this has always been

> the case.

>

> What gets up my nose is the idea to make Champion

> Hill one way. Why? it does not represent any

> danger regarding road users and never has. I moved

> there is 1958 with my family and cannot recall any

> traffic problems or accidents over the years to

> now.

>

> Traffic has not grown in such volume that things

> needs to be done. All that is happening is this is

> today!s idea which is taken up by certain sections

> of the community like a holy quest.

>

> I am all for change for the better but not for no

> good reason and a one way system is not required

> to alter a safe stretch of road to achieve a glow

> of sainthood.

>

> The last time Southwark did anything was to put in

> traffic islands down to Denmark Hill which only

> made the road narrower. They were not ever

> needed.

>

> So please do not keep flogging a dead horse over

> the Greendale quietway and how nice it is, it has

> always existed, always been nice, always been used

> by all and has been blocked off to cars for many

> many years. In fact many children learnt to cycle

> on this bit dirt road which it was in my day and

> was open to all traffic.

>

> Champion Hill is used by all manner of pedestrian

> and wheeled transport without any problems and

> does not have a great volume of traffic that would

> cause a problem to anybody.

>

> As I mentioned before if people cannot use the

> short stretch of road that is Champion Hill they

> should not be on the road.



Spider, well said. Too many of the changes currently being shoved through have the whiff of fanaticism and social engineering about them, forcing people to adopt behaviour that it is deemed by a select few to be for the greater good. It is dangerous and it is wrong.

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what's missing though (especially with the Brixton route) is somewhere safe to leave your bike at the other end.



True that.


@Spider69 - I use that route almost every day (on bike and on foot). I don't have much in the way of issues with it (if it felt life threatening, I wouldn't use it) - but can empathise with others that do, and with residents who are seemingly fed up of it being used as a cut through. I also see a fair few adults & big teenagers cycling on the pavement there. Whether out of fear, ignorance of the law, or something else, I don't know.


Having said that, I don't think a one-way would be particularly helpful. If anything, one-way systems encourage speeding. There are better answers.

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I attended the Dulwich Village/Court Lane/Calton Avenue meeting at St Barnabas today. It felt more like a sixth form project than a professional consultation. A complete Horlicks!


Five years or so ago, the Southwark traffic officers presented three or four options for the Calton Avenue junction and there was a consultation process. It appeared that the options presented today were no more than straw men, i.e. they were some way away from being viable options and we were invited to put sticky blue circles on the option we preferred. (Although a local resident, I had neither received nor heard anything previously about the proposals.)


I only hope that no council tax was expended on paying for what seemed to me to be a complete shambles, guaranteed to make a messy junction into an even messier one. Bring back the traffic officers, please! This needs a serious consultation and considered planning proposals not coursework for an urban planning GCSE.

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I was at the Saturday consultation too and it was a shambles.

What came out clearly was tfl/Southwark are hellbent on pushing some sort of junction rearrangement/spending their money by 2016, the actual quietway route was non-negotiable, and it was all about cars and cyclists without any thought for the pedestrians who will end up playing dodge the traffic.

The chaos at the Dulwich Village/Court Lane/Calton Avenue generally only happens during the Foundation Schools' (Dulwich College, Alleyns and JAGS) termtimes due to parents driving children to school and the school coaches, something tfl and Southwark seemed to ignore. It really seems like a sledgehammer to crack the proverbial nut....

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annafb Wrote:

> The chaos at the Dulwich Village/Court Lane/Calton Avenue generally only happens during the Foundation Schools' (Dulwich College, Alleyns and JAGS) termtimes due to parents driving children to school and the school coaches.


Dulwich Village junction can get busy outside term time but DV\Calton\Court Lane are much, much worse during Foundation schools term. Proved earlier this year when State schools (and most businesses) were back at work the week after Easter when traffic was fine. But, when JAGS\Alleyns started a week later all the queues\congestion resumed. I suspect many more state school pupils walk\cycle\scoot to school because they are closer, unlike the increasingly wide catchment area for the Foundation schools.


Points to consider from this:

- Should the Foundation schools be taking responsibility for the high volume of non-local traffic they generate

- Is it right they are increasing stress on local parking (eg Calton Avenue, Dovercourt, Townley Road) by increased development and reducing parking spaces in their own grounds

- What active steps are the Foundation schools (and their pressure group Dulwich Safe Routes to School) doing to discourage parents from driving their children to school by car.

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> What active steps are the Foundation schools (and their pressure group Dulwich Safe Routes to School) doing to discourage parents from driving their children to school by car.<


Parents may have to drop their children off by car, on their way to work. That may be one reason to use a car; cycling, walking or public transport may not be the only workable alternatives - and why should one special interest group make decisions for the whole community?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, I'm new here!


Sustrans have posted some summaries of the results: https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-cycling-route-in-champion-hill


I'm surprised to see more people in the area saying they cycle as their primary means of transport than driving. It's not a big difference - 19% vs 13% - but if you had asked me before I probably wouldn't have guessed that. But I guess it shouldn't be too surprising since only about 40% of households in Southwark have access to a car.


The consultation is an even split between people who say there is too much traffic, road safety is an issue, traffic is too fast, and those who say the opposite. I'd be interested to see whether those answers correlate with the modes of transport people say they use - is it mostly people travelling on foot and by bike who are unhappy with the level of safety, or is it a mix of everyone?

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471 people responded. 40% of those contacted


The number of people contacted is woeful.


Are these responses from 471 individual people at 471 separate address's or just email responses where any amount of views can be given from separate email address from a very few number of homes.


Green pressure groups come into their own with surveys like this and do not represent what most people see only what they want.


Southwark love to use percentages because they can hid a very poor response rate to back the decision they want to enact.


C.C meetings are just a cover to push through what ever they want.


I live in the area and received no contact at all.

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Somehow fixing the junction at Dulwich Village would be very helpful. I would like my kids to cycle the 3 miles to school, but as it stands, it is too dangerous even though they are fairly good on the road.


The Southwark Spine seems like a good idea provided it is of good quality. It won't inconvenience drivers much at all (I also have car, btw) and will probably reduce the impact of rat running.

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@spider69 Those results seem to be from Champion Hill - close to town, lots of students, relatively low incomes, low car ownership.


Presumably the reason for the low numbers is it's only a small area affected - a couple of housing estates, two or three roads and the big new student halls. Are the Kings students allowed to keep cars there even if they wanted & could afford one?


@Gabe Sustrans are putting forward all sorts of proposals for the D.V. junction - some better than others, some more likely to be accepted by the community, the council and TfL, some IMO a tad bit far-fetched. I agree, it's a very difficult junction for a child on a bike. Bad enough, in some directions, for an adult who knows what they're doing.


There have just been a series of Southwark/Sustrans drop-in consultation sessions, there aren't any more announced but there is this, which is probably worth going along to:


https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/cycling-in-dulwich/events/cycling-in-dulwich-workshop-2


If you have any constructive ideas re fixing the DV junction, there's a contact address for Sustrans on this page - drop them a line perhaps?


https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-in-dulwich

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When you take into account all the housing behind Appleshaw House, Arnold Avenue, Cleve Hall Estate, Wanley Road, Dylways, Blanchdowne, Ruskin Park House, all the flats along Denmark Hill and all the private housing you get into serious numbers.


So low numbers get what they want.


Students do not usually have cars.


I think it was agreed earlier there was no reason to play around with this area as it was already a quietway


Sustrans/Southwark have already decided. It will result in chaos.


There never has been a problem except in the minds of the green brigade.


There used to be very large green houses were the student place is perhaps they should pull it down and we can go back to growing our own food and not have to travel to replenish.


I am all for safety but it is getting beyond a joke now.

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Have a look at this article...see how pleasant our cities could be if they were more like Holland's


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2015/oct/22/what-i-learnt-from-a-month-cycling-in-the-netherlands


People think that Holland has always been people friendly (as opposed to car friendly!!) but the video in this article shows what its streets were like in the 70s - like ours today.

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  • 3 weeks later...

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