Cycling Quietway - E&C to Crystal Palace Consultation

[@Woodwarde]

Another set of consultations are set to hit us in a disorganised way.

Quietways and Sustrans. Hannah Padgett, local to Dulwich Village, is leading the Sustrans Community Engagement team for Quietways on behalf of TfL. Sustrans are also the delivery partner for TfL although from what Hannah has said ? the engineering will be the responsibility of Southwark engineers/planners and not subcontracted to Sustrans Delivery. Madeline Gunn in the same Sustrans Community Engagement team is responsible for Lambeth where the Quietway on Turney Rd moves between Southwark and Lambeth (including the roundabout the Turney and Rosendale junction). Lambeth are slightly ahead of Southwark in their engagement process.

There is an A4 flyer advertising on street pop ups, that is on limited email circulation ? attached here. It is the preliminary engagement for the Quietway in the area. The pop ups are largely questionnaire based, but with scope to get general comments on issues felt by people using the streets locally.

So do make sure you pose your own questions if you have any.

Sadly, in Southwark, we have had no direct formal communications from the Council to residents, prior to Sustrans initiating their Community Engagement campaign on behalf of TfL. This seems very premature and is likely to cause confusion.

Lambeth and Southwark seem to be allowing Sustrans to start this engagement but as councils they haven?t written to their residents individually to tell them what the Quietway is all about, what the impacts for residents will be, what Sustrans are doing on their or TfL?s behalf and the status of this engagement. Is it part of a formal or informal consultation programme for example.

Residents may be led to believe that they are working on improving local streets (which of course could be a side effect of a Quietway) without fully grasping the consequences of the Quietway.

Sustrans? independence to conduct this community consultation, since they are also the appointed TfL Delivery partner, will be in question.

In addition, separately Southwark have started an interactive map consultation on their web site for the Quietway at http://www.sdgdigital.co.uk/sites/southwarkquietways/

I see that the Turney and Burbage Road Residents Association site provides some useful additional background:

http://turneyandburbage.org.uk/2015/07/07/how-do-you-feel-about-losing-your-on-street-parking-turney-road-about-to-go-through-major-changes/

And finally, the timeframe for Sustrans Consultation and how it interfaces with Southwark decision making is said to be:

o Initial engagement with schools, parents and residents ? July 2015

o Questionnaire to all residents in (wide) catchment area ? August/September

o Pre-design workshops with maps & modelling tools, and walkabouts ? September

o Main informal consultation ? Oct to December

o Formal Design (with Southwark engineering input) ? December/January

o Consultation on proposed options ? Jan ? Feb 2016

o Report to DCC ? March 2016

o Final Approval (Cabinet Level) ? April 2016

o Implementation ? Summer 2016

[wulfhound]

Sadly, in Southwark, we have had no direct formal communications from the Council to residents, prior to Sustrans initiating their Community Engagement campaign on behalf of TfL. This seems very premature and is likely to cause confusion.

Sustrans are working with both Council and TfL. This ought to be seen as a positive thing - the council has copped a ton of flak over recent consultations, so this time they've brought in an organisation for whom community engagement is their bread-and-butter.

Lambeth and Southwark seem to be allowing Sustrans to start this engagement but as councils they haven?t written to their residents individually to tell them what the Quietway is all about, what the impacts for residents will be,

.. because they *don't know*! Rightly or wrongly, there's very little in the way of minimum standards for a Quietway, so the certain impact, other than a few more people cycling up the road & some fairly discreet purple street signs, is largely limited to either a) what the majority of residents are prepared to put up with, or b) what the council are prepared to stick their neck out & force through.

The one real exception to that is junction rebuilds. It seems pretty much inevitable that there will be substantial work at the Dulwich Village junction next summer, possibly but not necessarily on the same scale as Townley Road / EDG.

While I question the sanity of attempting to build a consistent, reliable transport network through a process of street-by-street consent from those most directly impacted, the high-ups have already decided that's how it's going to be done.

what Sustrans are doing on their or TfL?s behalf and the status of this engagement. Is it part of a formal or informal consultation programme for example.

The timeline you've posted seems to reflect that - pretty clearly informal at this stage, they're seeing what kind of interventions people might support and/or tolerate, and finding out what the hot button issues are ("don't even think about messing with on street parking", say). However, it's worth observing that "informal" and "formal" do not correspond to "unimportant" and "important". Qualitative input ("I don't like this, make it go away") seems to carry more weight during the informal process.

Sustrans? independence to conduct this community consultation, since they are also the appointed TfL Delivery partner, will be in question.

That's how they're doing the whole programme though - delivery via consultation, with what actually gets delivered being determined more by the consultation process than any overriding goals/standards. Which is rather short-sighted in my view, as it doesn't allow those residents who will be sitting on the fence about it (car owning families, especially) to evaluate whether they'll get something they themselves can actually use at the end of it.

My personal view is that if they'd set the bar higher in the first place, it'd be easier to convince people that any change and disruption is ultimately worth it.

[mockingbird]

Note the dates for the Pop-Ups in Dulwich (Sustrans organised).

Nothing through my door yet so I am not sure how Sustrans/Southwark are ensuring that they communicate these events. I hear from friends in Rosendale that they are also in the dark and that Sustrans (Lambeth) are not broadcasting the events in that area well either.

Tues 14th 6pm-7:30pm - North Dulwich station

Weds 15th 6pm-7:30pm - Dulwich Village Shops

Saturday 18th 9:30-11am - Turney rd/Burbage junction

Thursday 23rd 6pm-7:30pm - Calton ave/Townley rd junction

Can I also say that IMHO issuing a timeline does not equate to explaining how a consultation is being run and how its outputs are to be evaluated. The lack of clarity on how residents will be contacted is a prime example of a failure to explain. Perhaps we are considered to be telepathic.

Nor can I see how the route was proposed in the first place and what might make it suitable or where there may be significant barriers to its use; for example Turney, where virtually all houses have drives.

[intexasatthe moment]

Wulfhund - good to have the info I suppose but the fact that "That's how they're doing the whole programme " does nothing to alay concerns re bias and independence .

And stating that " with what actually gets delivered being determined more by the consultation process than any overriding goals/standards." won't make it so .

[wulfhound]

Nor can I see how the route was proposed in the first place and what might make it suitable or where there may be significant barriers to its use; for example Turney, where virtually all houses have drives.

In terms of routes, they took the London Cycle Network as a baseline & then extrapolated from that. They chose roads with relatively low (by the standards of the neighbourhood, at least) traffic speeds/volumes. Routes will have been agreed with, and signed off by, council officers; I don't know how high up the chain that stage of the process went (for example whether cabinet signed it off, how much involvement the Ward Cllrs had etc.)

One thing I can say with reasonable confidence is that it's unlikely to be a "cycle path", and as such driveways are pretty much a non issue. Southwark have in the past, and continue to, express a strong preference for integrating bikes with traffic wherever possible. On a road like Turney they'd be far more likely to create a cycle route by reducing traffic speed/volume in the main carriageway to a point where they consider mixing to be "OK" for their target user group than building separate cycle tracks or even painted cycle lanes. Rosendale is wider and faster - they could probably fit in a decent track there if they chose to.

@ITATM bias for or against, and independence from, what? Sustrans are employed by the council & TfL, and will inevitably be dancing to their tune. TfL are putting up the money, and the council has the final say on what gets built.

And stating that " with what actually gets delivered being determined more by the consultation process than any overriding goals/standards." won't make it so .

The goals are (intentionally) vague, and the standards are a score out of 100 with no minimum "pass" threshold, so beyond that it's entirely down to politics. Some of the designs recently unveiled in boroughs which don't have any understanding of cycling are entirely useless.. literally just painting some bike symbols on busy roads. As if that worked out well the last three times they tried it.

[intexasatthe moment]

Wulfhund I would be /am concerned that it would be in Sustrans ( and that of LA's and TFL ) interest to design a consultation that reaches very few people and that it delivers a predestined result rather than reflecting people's views .

[@Woodwarde]

Pointed out to me that there is a West Dulwich Forum and I can see no threads related to Cycling or Quietways there.

I wonder if Rosendale Residents have been contacted by Lambeth or Sustrans re the community engagement program on the part of the Quietway routed that way.

[wulfhound]

@ITATM thereby triggering a storm when the final plans are published & word does get around? I can think of places they might get away with that, but Dulwich Village isn't one of them.

[intexasatthe moment]

Wulfhund - everything's on a spectrum . And although there is currently a "storm" ( aka people trying to influence policy by accessing consultation )on here about a few planning issues, the effect on their outcome remains to be seen .

And of course consultations are only spin ,they're not ballots where you vote for what you want .

[womanofdulwich]

Rosendale rd residents not consulted- letter through letterbox a week after a local (???) residents consultation meeting was held.

[@Woodwarde]

Quietway cycling route in Champion Hill - part of EC to Crystal Palace proposed route.

Consultation open at this link until 23rd Aug.

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-cycling-route-in-chamption-hill/consult_view

Key Dates

Consultation is Open; Runs from 27 Jul 2015 to 23 Aug 2015

Feedback expected 30 September 2015

Quietway drop-in event #1

Mon 3 Aug 2015

Quietway drop-in event #2

Thu 6 Aug 2015

Quietway drop-in event #3

Mon 10 Aug 2015

Quietway drop-in event #4

Wed 12 Aug 2015

Not many questions but note:

7 Do you think a road closure on Champion Hill at the junction with Dog Kennel Hill is a good idea?

Yes

No

Not sure

8 Do you think a one-way system (two way for cyclists) for southbound vehicle traffic between Denmark Hill and the raised junction on Champion Hill is a good idea?

Yes

No

Not sure

The Format will be the same for the Calton & Turney route no doubt.

[hopskip]

This is the Sustrans flyer. There is a link from the consultation document but you can go to the URL below. This link allows you to give feedback to Sustrans directly if you cannot make it to their pop-ups........

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-cycling-route-in-chamption-hill/supporting_documents/Champion%20HIll%20Engagement%20flyer%20v006.pdf

Note the statement:

Feedback from this process will inform the options to conduct a four to six

month trial before formal consultation in Spring/Summer 2016

I think we can read that as a decision already taken to experiment with one way at the end of this year? What a nightmare.

[ed_pete]

Consultation on Carlton Avenue/Dulwich Village/Turney Road Quietway now open:

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-in-dulwich/consult_view

[@Woodwarde]

Leaflets (badged TfL/Sustrans/Southwark) have been delivered in the post to addresses in Turney, Calton, Woodwarde and Court Lane. Not sure where else.

The route determined by Southwark is the Calton/Turney route via Dulwich Village Junction.

You can complete online with CLOSING date of 17th SEPT at:

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-in-dulwich/consultation/confirm_submit

Contact Sustrans

020 7954 3031 [email protected]

Key Dates

Status: Open

Runs from 29 Aug 2015 to 17 Sep 2015

Calton Ave/Townley Rd Junction - walkabouts you can join at peak times

Walkabout 1 08.00hrs

Thu 17 Sep 2015

Walkabout 2 15.00hrs

Thu 17 Sep 2015

Walkabout 3 17.30 hrs

Thu 17 Sep 2015

First workshops: intial discussions of possible interventions

Wed 23 Sep 2015 18.30-20.30 Southwark Community Sports Trust Pavillion Turney Rd

First workshops: Initial discussions of possible interventions

Sat 26 Sep 2015 11.00-13.00 St Barnabas Parish Hall, entrance Gilkes Place SE21

Concept Design workshop: Narrowing down the options

Sat 3 Oct 2015 1pm-3pm St Barnabas Church, 40 Calton Ave

[@Woodwarde]

Further to my post above,

First workshops: initial discussions of possible interventions

Wed 23 Sep 2015 18.30-20.30 Southwark Community Sports Trust Pavillion Turney Rd

First workshops: Initial discussions of possible interventions

Sat 26 Sep 2015 11.00-13.00 St Barnabas Parish Hall, entrance Gilkes Place SE21

The walkabouts have been taking place next week, so well worth showing up at one of the above workshops where Sustrans should be discussing what they believe are possible interventions.

IF you are not in the discussion then you don't seem to have a voice.

[slarti b]

@Woodwarde Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> First workshops: initial discussions of possible interventions .....

> IF you are not in the discussion then you don't seem to have a voice.

At the Dulwich Society open meeting on Saturday I discovered one of the options being considered is the partial closure of Court Lane. Sustrans also proposed to close the lower end of Rosendale Road to cars so I suspect there will be suggestions to similarly close Calton, Townley and Turney road to through traffic.

So, definitely worth coming along to the workshops to give some input and make postive suggestions to improve position for cyclists without massive disruption to residents and other other road users.

[bawdy-nan]

What's the concern about partial closure of Court Lane or Calton? Is it a concern about congestion and pushing traffic onto Woodwarde? Or is there something else?

[spider69]

What does partial closure actually mean. Where to where.

Explanation anyone.

[slarti b]

bawdy-nan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What's the concern about partial closure of Court Lane or Calton? Is it a concern about congestion and pushing

> traffic onto Woodwarde? Or is there something else?

I think there is a general concern about the impact on the wider area of closing roads so yes, all of those and others; such as the effect of road closures on bus routes, both directly and through displaced traffic.

For example, when Townley was closed last year due to bridge repairs (Townley closure is one option allegedly being considered) it caused delays and congestion throughout the area.

To my understanding, Sustrans have been tasked with recommending a design for the Quietway which will be implemented by Southwark. I do not know whether their brief includes assessing the wider effect of changes they recommend or what authority they have have to push through changes.

For all these reasons I think it important that local residents are aware of these workshops and turn up to give their input.

@Spider69.

The suggestion I heard was that Court Lane would be made No-Entry at the Calton Ave junction end.

edit to clarify reason for last year's Turney Road closure

[Charles Notice]

Would someone explain why another main through route is under threat of closure.

What is the thinking behind this?

What possible benefit will this bring apart from nimbyism.

Like MG it smacks of turning the area into a gated selected area.

These routes have always been there and used for the benefit of all

[first mate]

That SUSTRANS questionnaire/feedback form is one of the most disgraceful examples of skewing I think I have ever seen. It might as well have said if anything in your world is not 100% perfect please sign here.

[@Woodwarde]

Putting tonight's meeting on your radar because it and the equivalent meeting on Saturday will be the forums that Sustrans will use as evidence of public input for their preferred options and recommendations.

Especially if things like One Way on Court Lane are to be suggested......

Tonight:

First workshops: initial discussions of possible interventions

Wed 23 Sep 2015 18.30-20.30 Southwark Community Sports Trust Pavillion Turney Rd

[Charles Notice]

What happens?

Each ward votes on the quiet way, what happens if one ward votes against it happening in their ward.

I.e. Champion Hill votes against a quiet way. Then what does it just get bulldozed through? If this would be the case why consult in the first place?

Suspect the whole thing is rigged anyway and consultations just a cover.

What % of the ward is needed. Rather how many votes are needed. % figures mean zip but Southwark like them because they then say "but most people want it"

[@Woodwarde]

Your last chance to comment on the Sustrans led consultation for interventions on the Quietway is this coming Saturday.

Sat 26 Sep 2015 11.00-13.00 St Barnabas Parish Hall, entrance Gilkes Place SE21

You will get chance to review options along the route itself and recommend interventions such as double yellow lines, zebra crossings etc that might be viable.

The major area of focus for TfL and Southwark, is the Dulwich Village junction.

See here for 4 pre-designed options that were provided at the meeting for discussion. These are clearly positioned as not being fixed ideas but they may indicate the direction of thought on the scale of the challenge:

http://turneyandburbage.org.uk/2015/09/24/dulwich-village-junction-possible-redesigns-photos-of-drawings-for-discussion/

You will see some radical change suggested, for example for Court Lane to become one way.

It is worth making time to go to the meeting on Saturday to input your local knowledge and views at this early stage.

These proposals could have a major impact on Dulwich and need local knowledge to determine what is workable.

[wulfhound]

Each ward votes on the quiet way, what happens if one ward votes against it happening in their ward.

I.e. Champion Hill votes against a quiet way. Then what does it just get bulldozed through? If this would be the case why consult in the first place?

Actually, it's rather the opposite.

The Quietway is pretty much certain to happen - but at a bare minimum, it's nothing more than a designation (well, a few road signs and some paint) - much like the LCN commuter cycle route that exists today. (Although the Village junction is bad enough that they're bound to be keen to improve that - on that, I'm liking the look of Option 2 - apart from the kerb cutback).

They're consulting to see what standard they can build it to in each neighbourhood. They want to build it as good as they can, but the politics & constraints are different in each area. Equally, though, a consultation is not a plebiscite - it's not about raw % votes. They don't need a majority, but 2:1 against any given intervention and they'd likely back down.

What that means for the route as a whole, is that it's impossible for potential supporters (would-be users, might-be users, and wouldn't-use-it-myself-but-it'd-be-nice-for-other-people) to know how good the thing is going to be overall.

The Champion Hill bit might be great, and Dulwich unchanged apart from the junction - or indeed vice versa.

Which in turn feeds back in to how much change people are prepared to put up with. If the whole route were guaranteed to be of a very high standard, a much wider section of the population stands to benefit. As things stand, precious little is guaranteed.