One in Ten

[RosieH]

Huguenot, truly, what planet are you living on?

  Quote

Since we've made the assumption that it's not other women hitting these women, that nearly all men are doing it, and that anyone who says otherwise is a rapist (something women don't do) - you'll forgive me for interpreting this as an attack on men?

One in ten is a statistic that shows the likelihood of women being the victim of gender-based violence as defined by the UN. Now I know you're a wise statistician and all, but frankly, I find your posts on this topic disingenuous at best and am choosing to throw my hat in with the UN rather than with you.

You're a man. And as such, maybe it is uncomfortable recognising that men are the main perpetrators of ALL violent crime (although clearly, women are making some headway in demanding equality in this area too). I've resisted making this point as I don't want this to be an anti-man thing, it isn't, any more than a campaign against gun crime would be (men again you see).

And it isn't that one in ten men is violent towards women. Of the estimated 66,000 women in the UK who have been subjected to female genital mutilation, there wouldn't have been one butcher for every woman (and indeed, women are heavily involved in this practice too). Your average rapist may well have sexually assaulted / raped more than one woman. In domestic violence, where, as in my case, it happens within the family, that's one man to more than one woman, and similarly if that partnership breaks up and he moves onto someone else. The numbers go down and down and down.

And of course women are involved too: there was the first case relatively recently of a woman being convicted of rape, certainly in sexual assault, in domestic violence, in female genital mutilation, in trafficking.

  Quote

LegalEagle then suggests that nearly all of her mates have been beaten by men with hot irons.

That's not worthy of you - that's not what she said and you know it. I mentioned 6 women of my knowledge earlier, I realised I omitted two - and how could I forget, one whose husband chased her down the street with an 8" chef's knife, another who struggled to get away from an attempted rape.

I could tell you some serious horror stories, but a public forum just isn't the place. I would ask that you suspend your righteous indignation and consider that it's possible, please believe me when I tell you that it happens, and terminology like "normal social challenges" is hugely insulting and disrespectful to women who have had their lives turned upside down by violence.

Edited to say this is getting silly now, so I'm really really going to try to leave it here. I hope all you fellas with bullying lady bosses speak to HR and get it dealt with.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Am I on the wrong Forum here?

People mentioning "reality"...since when did most people's (away from the cloistered enclaves and environs of the genteel East Dulwich) have ANYTHING to do with the "reality" of life for many people?

Come with me Dear Reader on a Guided Tour (I HAVE been there) of The Aylesbury and Heygate Estates at The Elephant, then entering the epi-centre of Peckham's five remaining Estates, with a jaunty sojourn off to The Angell Town Estate in Brixton followed by THe Ferrier at Kidbrooke, the whole of Erith and most of Thamesmead then The Elmington at Camberwell, half of Stockwell etc etc and then we'll just begin to get a flavour of the everyday existence of many people, a millon metaphorical miles away from here, it seems...

[Huguenot]

Good old UN.

I don't feel at all uncomfortable with knowing that men commit the larger amount of violent crime, they're also predominantly the victims. This is a given.

I'm uncomfortable with issues of context and proportionality, and I'm also concerned that comments such as "you're a man, and as such..." reveal a willingness to make men as a gender responsible for the crimes of individuals.

I'm uncomfortable that massaged figures (the number of victims who don't report crimes) are accepted as accurate and communicated so flippantly, but in such an unrepresentative way.

I'm also concerned that these gender based assumptions overlook the collusion of women in such crimes.

You may recall the woman who called her boyfriend in from a parked car to murder a Wimbledon shopper. I have no doubt that the woman would have committed the crime herself had she been physical enough, and that she enjoyed meeting out physical attacks using men as proxies.

You may also be aware of the trial of Amanda Knox or the presence of women at Peckham 'parties'.

These are society issues not gender issues.

I reiterate my point, that these single issue campaigns are disingenuous, divisive and neither reflect nor are likely to solve the underlying problems.

[annaj]

Huguenot, I can see that you would be upset by being allied with some of the other voices on here and I agree that seeing the debate in terms of sides is not helpful, but you seem not to be hearing what we're saying.

No-one has suggested that all men, most men, or even many men are rapists. No-one has produced any figures whatsoever relating to how many men (or women) commit sexually violent crimes. The only statistic being quoted by the campaign is the 1 in 10, which relates to how many women have suffered. It is your interpretation that this is anti-men based on, as far as I can see, nothing.

Just to be absolutely clear. I do not hate men. I do not believe that all men are rapists.

I know, from reading your previous clear and well informed posts on other subjects, that you have an excellent grasp of statistics and seriously don't understand why you keep accusing us of saying all men are rapists, when all we're saying is that 1 in 10 women have suffered rape or sexual violence. Those to things are not the same and you know that.

I understand you argument about single issue debates and your points about society and respect for one another in general, but the problem is that there is a specific deficit in services, so a specific campaign is required.

And again just for clarity. This campaign is for better provision of support services, across the country, for women who have suffered rape and sexual violence. It is not anti-men.

I won't speak for BN5, he's more than capable of defending himself, but I will say that this line

  Quote

I can also believe that a few of both genders have been badgered into sexual encounters that some extremists would stick in the same category as hanging around in dark alleys with a kitchen knife.

in one of your previous posts chilled me to the bone and was one of the reasons I stepped away from the debate.

Yes, there is a grey area, and yes, there are girls who wake up with regrets and cry rape, occasionally, and it is despicable and belittles those who really suffer.

But there is also a line and it is often crossed and rape by a date, boyfriend or husband is still rape and can be just as damaging as the dark alley attack by a stranger.

Throughout your posts, with phrases like "normal social challenges" and the line quoted above you give the impression, whether intentionally or not, that you think that women who report these offences are somehow exagerating or just not coping with life's ups and downs. That for something to be rape it has to be in a dark alley, for something to be domestic violence it has to involve a black eye in the back room of an East End pub. Surely, you understand it's more complicated than that? You said in your last post that this is all about bullying and power and you are right, and because of that violence can be subtle, hidden, insidious, escalating and spread out over years, but no less wrong and no less damaging than a brutal on-off attack that we would all recognise.

Just one final thought, and you'll just have to trust me on this, out there across East Dulwich (and where ever else people post or read from) there will be women sitting with their hands posied over keyboard, hesitating, wondering whether to share there experience. RosieH has been brave, as has Leagle-Eagle, but the others are holding back. Maybe because they don't want to reveal their personal life, maybe because they don't want to relive whatever they experienced, or maybe because they are desperately afraid that someone out there, who has never gone through what they have, will tell them that it wasn't that bad.

They are the 1 in 10 and they are out there and this campaign is about making it ok for them to come forward and giving them somewhere to go.

Edited to say this took me a long time to write and so I hadn't seen Huguenot's last post, but I don't think it changes anything I've said.

[DaveR]

"They are the 1 in 10 and they are out there and this campaign is about making it ok for them to come forward and giving them somewhere to go."

I've been looking on the site for this campaign trying to find the evidential basis for this stat and I've had no joy as yet. My issue with this (and with lots of other campaigns unrelated to gender issues) is that there is a belief that if your cause is just enough, it doesn't matter whether your stats are reliable, or whether your message is massive simplification of a complex issue (or indeed a number of issues that are in fact only superficially related).

Emotive appeals are all very well for making people feel good about public displays of concern but not particularly helpful when trying to work out, for example, what (if any) changes need to be made to the criminal justice system to increase the conviction rate in rape trials.

[annaj]

Dave, I could be wrong, but I think Rosie explained the source of the figure much earlier in the thread.

I take your point about needing more detailed and specific statistics to plan changes in the criminal justice system, but, again, that's not what this campaign is about.

The Havens are the only specialist centres in London for victims of rape and sexual assault. There are only three centres for the whole of London and they often can't see people immediately, because they're already dealing with another case or cases. And that's just London. There are areas of the country with even worse provision. That is what this campaign is trying to address.

Edited to say the Haven website also quotes the 1 in 10 figure and references the British Crime Survey 2000

[DaveR]

"Dave, I could be wrong, but I think Rosie explained the source of the figure much earlier in the thread"

No, I don't think she did, other than to say this:

"One in ten is a statistic that shows the likelihood of women being the victim of gender-based violence as defined by the UN"

which doesn't really amswer any questions about source, reliability etc.

It was Rosie who raised the issue of rape convictions and talked about the need to "educate" potential jurors - dangerous ground if you're not sure of it.

As for the need for more specialist centres for victims, to be brutal this is a question of healthcare priorities - more for rape victims = less for cancer sufferers.

I don't agree with many (or perhaps any) of the other critical posts on this thread but this is an area rife with dodgy stats and well-meaning but misguided campaigns. It's also inevitable that lots of men feel alienated, whether you think they should or not. There comes a point where broad brush messages just aren't helpful any more (is violence against women really an issue where there is a general lack of awareness?) and when bald stats (1 in 10) provoke disbelief rathern than sympathy.

[Huguenot]

"you'll just have to trust me on this, out there across East Dulwich (and where ever else people post or read from) there will be women sitting with their hands posed over keyboard, hesitating, wondering whether to share there experience."

I sympathise with each and every victim of violence, whatever gender they are. They deserve redress and support.

However, I don't think that this forum is the place for leveling accusations, I think we have a legal system where these events can be considered by 12 reasonable people of both genders.

I don't think that we should 'just have to trust [you or anyone] on this', that's not the way that a reasonable society works. Judge, jury and executioner on the basis of undisclosed knowledge? Ahem...

I don't think that we should be casting vast unsubstantiated pools of unidentified victims into the debate as if they are a silent majority represented by the Illuminati.

If these guys want help, support and a voice then they must take responsibility for it, otherwise they cannot be taken into account simply because it's not practical. You can't set up a justice system on behalf of ghost victims.

[annaj]

Dave, this is the source quoted by The Havens.

British Crime Survey 2000

The 1 in 10 figure comes from Keypoint 3. 9.7% of women reported some form of sexual victimisation, including rape, in their adult life.

Rape, sexual assault and sexual victimisation are all defined in the report.

For me, the widespread disbelief of the 1 in 10 figure is exactly why this campaign is important.

[annaj]

Huguenot, I wasn't for a moment suggesting that anyone should make accusations or seek justice through the forum, I don't know how you got that from my post.

I was saying that Rosie and Legal-Eagle have both come forward and said that they and/or their friends fall into the 10% and there will be other women out there reading this who do too, but who don't wish to go public.

If my language was too emotive or dramatic I apologise, this is an emotive subject.

Edited for clarity

[Moos]

Huguenot, just so you don't think I was ignoring your response:-

I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about 'sides' in a debate. For clarification, I didn't mean those for or against violence! But you were an early respondent to the original post and the first to start to make attacks on women in general

  Quote

I had female bosses for thirteen of the fifteen years that I worked for anyone else. On the whole I found female bosses to be more vindictive, more invidious, more intimidating and more humiliating than I ever witnessed men to be.

There's an excuse that they had to be 'stronger' to be equally successful, but on the whole I found them vicious and arbitrary.

I found women to be far more capable of inflicting sustained psychological violence over a period of years than men ever would. Men tend to be more abrupt, more physical and more limited than women. Men have this competitive encounter resolved in moments, whereas women seemed to destroy others over tens of years.

I've seen encounters where groups of otherwise friendly fellers have been driven into conflict be competitive girlfrieds.

I've found that 'let it go' runs better with men than women.

which approach was then taken up with glee and expanded by others. Those are the people whom I characterised as being on your 'side' - people who decide that on a thread campaigning against violence against women that the appropriate response is to denigrate women.

You went on to say 'forgive me for interpreting this as an attack on men' - I think this has been taken up by other posters, so I won't try to recircle the discussion.

[RosieH]

Some stats and their sources: (taken from end violence against women)

Studies have illustrated that VAW is widespread in our society. For example:

? 45% of women have experienced some form of domestic violence, sexual

assault or stalking.4

? It is conservatively estimated that 80,000 women suffer rape every year.5

? At least 32% of children, mostly girls, experience some form of child sexual

abuse.6

? An estimated 66,000 women living in the UK have undergone female genital

mutilation (FGM) and 21,000 girls under 16 are currently at risk.7

? In 2004, the Metropolitan Police decided to re-open 114 murder cases from

the previous decade, which they now think may be so-called ?honour? killings.8

4 Walby, S. & Allen, J. (2004) Domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking: Findings from the

British Crime Survey. Home Office. London.

5 Ibid.

6 HM Government (2007) Cross-government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse. Home

Office. London.

7 Forward (2007) A Statistical Study to Estimate the Prevalence of Female Genital Mutilation in

England and Wales . Forward. London.

8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3828255.stm

And Dave, you know what, I do think that people need educating about this, because it certainly seems to me from my experience of this thread, that people I would expect to be intelligent and informed think that sexual assault can't possibly be widespread and that it's just, you know, a normal social challenge that a woman should take in her stride.

edited as I missed a bracket

[dulwichdreadlocks]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "you'll just have to trust me on this, out there

> across East Dulwich (and where ever else people

> post or read from) there will be women sitting

> with their hands posed over keyboard, hesitating,

> wondering whether to share there experience."

>

> I sympathise with each and every victim of

> violence, whatever gender they are. They deserve

> redress and support.

>

> However, I don't think that this forum is the

> place for leveling accusations, I think we have a

> legal system where these events can be considered

> by 12 reasonable people of both genders.

>

> I don't think that we should 'just have to trust

> on this', that's not the way that a reasonable

> society works. Judge, jury and executioner on the

> basis of undisclosed knowledge? Ahem...

>

> I don't think that we should be casting vast

> unsubstantiated pools of unidentified victims into

> the debate as if they are a silent majority

> represented by the Illuminati.

>

> If these guys want help, support and a voice then

> they must take responsibility for it, otherwise

> they cannot be taken into account simply because

> it's not practical. You can't set up a justice

> system on behalf of ghost victims.

Are you like those 'shock jocks' they have in America?

[Huguenot]

Sorry it came across as that Moos, I was attempting to find a balancing argument to clarify that gender disagreements were not a one sided affair. Although the nature of the crimes may change, it appears that both sides demonstrate destructive intent.

As I've said, I condemn violence in all forms.

Incidentally, the British Crime Survey seems to reveal, as discussed before, that these crimes are usually experienced and perpetrated by 16 - 24 years in households with an income less than 10,000 a year.

This seems to reveal rather less about gender inequality, than about a violent and regressive subculture operating outside the rules of society.

It also discloses that the UK 'one in ten' issue has nothing whatever to do with the UN figures which talk about the violent cultural and religious subordination of women across all demographics in medieval societies.

Again it makes me question the agenda of the campaign.

[Moos]

Don't at all disagree with your points on the wider topic of addressing the ills of society in general. It's certainly no co-incidence that it is the poorest amongst us that suffer most in this area.

Thank you for your clarification on your first post.

[Reg Smeeton]

Gosh.

Has anyone noticed that men can be divided into two camps, those who refer to women as "Ladies" and those who don't ? I'm not saying that either camp has particular attributes, and it's probably irrelevant to this thread, but it would make for an interesting social study.

Right, I'm off to find a plumber on another thread.

[Huguenot]

As a note on the '45%' domestic violence and sexual assault figure, the British Crime Survey defines this as any violence committed by a man against a woman that wasn't a rape.

On that basis in the interests of balance it would be good to know the percentage of men who have suffered violence from women by the same definition.

This isn't to suggest that the one cancels the other out, but merely to explore whether we have problems with a violent society or a case against men.

It changes the solution you see....

[annaj]

My interpretation of the campaign, as I've said, is that they are lobbying for improved provision of services for victims. This, to me, seems straight forward, reasonable and not particularly sinister.

I deal with the staff at the Camberwell Haven regularly and know how over-stretched their resources are.

For me this is a very simple case of saying rape and sexual violence are common, much more common than you might think, and we need to provide better care to victims. That's why I'm confused as to why it is seen as so controversial.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Something Annaj said struck a chord: if anyone reading this thread is a victim of domestic violence (men and women), please don't suffer in silence. Below are a selection of places that will give help/listen to you/etc.

Women's Aid Federation of England

Offers support, advice and information on all aspects of domestic violence.

Website: www.womensaid.org.uk

English domestic violence helpline

Helpline: 0808 200 0247

Email: info@womensaid.org.uk

Refuge

Offers emergency accommodation and support for women and children experiencing domestic violence.

Helpline: 0808 200 0247

Website: www.refuge.org.uk

Rights of Women

Works to attain justice and equality by informing, educating and empowering women about their legal rights.

Legal helpline: 020 7251 6577

Sexual violence helpline: 020 7251 8887

Website: www.rightsofwomen.org.uk

Broken Rainbow

Telephone helpline for lesbians, gay men and bisexual or transgendered people experiencing domestic violence. It's staffed by workers from these communities.

Helpline: 0845 260 4460

Website: www.broken-rainbow.org.uk

MALE advice and inquiry line

Helpline: 0808 801 0327

Website: www.mensadviceline.org.uk

ManKind

ManKind helps and advises male victims of domestic violence.

Helpline: 0870 794 4124

Website: www.mankind.org.uk

Mankind UK

A support service for men who have been sexually abused, sexually assaulted and/or raped.

Helpline: 01273 510 447

Email: enquiries@mankinduk.co.uk

Website: www.mankinduk.co.uk

Samaritans

24-hour confidential emotional support for anyone in a crisis.

Helpline: 08457 909 090

Ireland helpline: 1850 609 090

Website: www.samaritans.org.uk

Survivors

Offers a practical pack of information to those experiencing domestic violence

Call their answer service on 01293 520 562, leave your details and they will forward copies of their 'Escape' and 'Aftercare' packs in the post.

Action on Elder Abuse

UK helpline: 0808 808 8141

Ireland: 1800 940 010

Website: www.elderabuse.org.uk

A twelve week programme providing information about domestic violence to men and women

www.freedomprogramme.co.uk

[annaj]

And as note, Huguenot, The Haven also provides services for men.

[Huguenot]

Well we seem to have found a working middle ground now annaj, so I can see it seems bizarre.

However, if you need to know, I found it controversial because the website highlighted in the OP listed the UK's '1 in 10' figure alongside the rape and murder of women as an act of war and radical social gender oppression elsewhere in the world.

There was what I regard as a deliberate attempt to conflate the issues in an inappropriate way that was dishonest and not a reasonable reflection of the society which I grew up in.

[Mick Mac]

Rosie - You have quoted figures above under Violence against Women, including 1) honour killings and 2) female genital mutilation.

Surely these items are either mostly, if not completely, restricted to ethnic monorities in the UK?

If so this campaign should be about ethnic minoroties in the UK being subject to laws of this country.

[RosieH]

Mick, I could draw you a venn diagram if you like. 1 in 10 women (that's about 3 million or so) versus 66,000 cases of FGM?

It includes them, it isn't exclusively about them. So no, the campaign shouldn't be about ethnic minorities being subject to the laws of the country. (or are you saying that rape and domestic violence are also restricted to ethnic minorities.....? surely not)

Huguenot, you're probably aware that interntationally Amnesty campaign against violence towards women (which includes rape as a weapon of war) among their many other worthwhile campaigns - they are also part of this campaign in the UK. It wasn't meant by me as any kind of attack on men, and I don't believe it is meant that way by Amnesty either. However, I am not a man, so I cannot say with authority that that is how it comes across.

And I think it possible that I have misinterpreted what you said about "normal social challenges" - from your previous posts on all manner of subjects, I'm certain that I did. But it felt to me that you were saying that short of a knife to the throat, sexual assault or a slap round the face are just things we women should have to deal with as part and parcel of everyday life. I take it that wasn't what you meant..?

[DaveR]

"For me this is a very simple case of saying rape and sexual violence are common, much more common than you might think, and we need to provide better care to victims"

I guess this is my issue - is rape 'common', and is it much more common than people think? These questions are genuinely difficult to answer, particularly when every survey has to distinguish between "self-defined" rape figures and those derived from (widely differing) definitions employed by whoever is running the survey. The British Crime Survey use 'force' as the key concept (unlike the criminal law where 'consent' is key) but neither 'force' nor the wider term 'sexual victimisation' are defined. These stats are deliberately presented as simple and shocking in order to persuade people that this is much more common than they think, but the stats are not simple, and do not accord with many people's experiences, and so there is a risk that it is counter-productive - just look at this thread.

I would advise anyone who is minded to make generalisations about this topic to go and sit through a few rape trials - it won't be pleasant but it will give you an idea of just how difficult it is to come up with easy answers.

[Mick Mac]

Rosie

Now that you have highlighted that these types (eg honour killings) of crime are included and reflected in the 1:10 ratio I think it would be interesting how much VAW goes on within ethnic minorities in the UK and how much is outside ethnic minorities.

Some ethnic minorities have beliefs, religious or otherwise that allow, through custom, turning a blind eye or otherwise, abuse of male and female children and adults. Police and support services deal with the victims as best they can.

Obviously victims of abuse from ethnic minoroties are no more or less entitled to support but I think their abuse needs to be addressed with a top down approach. I'm sure government agencies are working on this.

For this reason I have added my name to the Amnesty "Help the Human" campaign. I agree it is a good campaign, but I think having looked at your link to the Amnesty website its a worldwide problem and the 1:10 UK VAW ratio does not necessarily, I think, reflect the correct proportions for East Dulwich or for my friends/family or the wider group of people I know.

That's not to be interpreted as I don't think FAW happens in east dulwich or the wider community, unfortunatley it does, but other than preaching human decency I'm not sure what we can do to prevent it happening.