20 mph

[vandam]

Anyone else finding it incredibly difficult to drive at 20 mph in the entire Borough of Southwark?

Yes, I know it saves lives, but it just seems like you're crawling, especially if there is no other traffic around.

[indiepanda]

And if there is other traffic around you often find they are tailgating you, urging you to hurry up.

I can understand the logic for back streets which are double parked and too narrow for two cars to pass - I was rarely doing the speed limit on those and often more like 20 anyway.

But for ones main streets, especially ones where parking isn't allowed, I think it's a step too far. I am having to spent time keeping an eye on my speedometer to reduce my speed after 30 mph being acceptable for the 18 years since I passed my test, which means my eyes are on the road less than when the limit was 30 - which strikes me as making things less safe rather than more.

[lesalden]

What amazes me is that they never consider the effect of the greatly increased fuel consumption in a 20mph zone. Everywhere else the are on about reducing Carbon footprint. But this issue never appears in the 20mph proposals as a factor to be considered. Also if we are talking about reducing accidents (sorry that's not PC - you have to say 'collisions' nowadays) they never publicise that the biggest cause of 'collisions' between children and motor vehicles is when the vehicle is going backwards.

Is this in fact really a war on the motorist?

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's not a war on the motorist, no.

[Jeremy]

I'm not really convinced by the fuel consumption argument, when London driving is mainly stop-start anyway.

But yeah... 20mph on main roads with good visibility makes no sense to me either.

[DulwichFox]

I have noticed a greater number of people running across the road and cars pulling out

of side streets since the 20 MPH limit was introduced.

Also personally witnessed several 3 to 4 car rear end shunts.

On main roads cars traveling at slower speed, lower gear, higher revs. More pollution.

Cars are not designed to be driven at 20 MPH for longer distances.

Dulwich to Surrey Quays 4.5miles trying to keep under 20 MPH

DulwichFox

[Lowlander]

vandam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone else finding it incredibly difficult to

> drive at 20 mph in the entire Borough of

> Southwark?

> Yes, I know it saves lives, but it just seems like

> you're crawling, especially if there is no other

> traffic around.

I find it dead easy (although I admit to keeping the speedo around 22 max).

Whenever I drive in Southwark the only places I feel safe driving above 20mph are the red routes which aren't affected anyway.

As a pedestrian it's far easier and more pleasant to cross the road (e.g. junction of Heber Rd and Lordship Lane).

My car is achieving exactly the same mpg.

[FatherJack]

Lowlander but 22 is not 20 or below as is now the rule, not being picky...honest!

I do not drive often but I recently found it impossible on Denmark Hill to maintain a steady 20mph and Dulwich Fox makes an excellent point, pedestrians are crossing, sometimes with a false sense of security, as some cars are whizzing past on the inside in excess of the 20mph.

Buses travelling along at 20mph...?

How are Southwark managing/monitoring this?

[Lowlander]

FatherJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander but 22 is not 20 or below as is now the

> rule, not being picky...honest!

>

> I do not drive often but I recently found it

> impossible on Denmark Hill to maintain a steady

> 20mph and Dulwich Fox makes an excellent point,

> pedestrians are crossing, sometimes with a false

> sense of security, as some cars are whizzing past

> on the inside in excess of the 20mph.

>

> Buses travelling along at 20mph...?

>

> How are Southwark managing/monitoring this?

Car speedos typically overestimate by 10%. But I'll be sure to keep to 20mph from now on :-)

Southwark aren't enforcing it. Neither are the police. So the only penalty is your conscience, or an accident.

Essentially, if it gets people to moderate their speed to between 25-30 as opposed to 30-35 then you're reducing speed, saving lives and (arguably) reducing pollution for little cost.

[wulfhound]

Buses travelling along at 20mph...?

They barely get above 20 most of the time anyway, what with having to stop for lights, pedestrian crossings and bus stops.

Cars are not designed to be driven at 20 MPH for longer distances.

Dulwich to Surrey Quays 4.5miles trying to keep under 20 MPH

Conventional cars aren't exactly optimised for 4.5 miles of stop-start-stop-start anyway, regardless of whether the top speed you reach is 20 or 30. I'm generally of the opinion that the Renault Twizy is a rather silly machine, but it's designed to excel at that sort of thing.

[Jeremy]

I think electic vehicles are ideal for London driving.. problem is that don't you really need a driveway to recharge them?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Electric, pay as you go, hire cars (zip cars) are probably the future for inner cities. Especially once driverless technology really takes off - but it'll be a long time coming / big culture change.

[njc97]

Unless you're in the wrong gear, 20mph uses less fuel than 30mph. And there's nothing magic about 30mpg being the "right" speed other than you're used to it. Foxey: have you noticed more people running out because previously you've have gone over the top of them before you saw them>

[Mrs TP]

I'm sick of being abused by other drivers for sticking to the 20mph. Sydenham Hill is the worst for me and I know it's where the police like to hang out with their hand held speed traps from time to time. I tootle along at 20 keeping well over to the left for those that want to over-take and whiz along at whatever law-breaking speed suits them. Two people happily over took me the other day but the third beeped like crazy at me and hand gestures to match their anger ...

[FHRoad]

The thing is, if you are going to do it, do it right. Look at this signage (attached) at the end of St Aidens Road. Can anyone actually tell me what the limit is meant to be, and on what road it applies!?

[Loz]

It's obvious, FHRoad. You may do 30mph for about 10 meters. :))

[wulfhound]

That signage looks to be out of date and wrong - Peckham Rye / Forest Hill Road is 20 now, I think. But you will still get those slightly bizarre 20-30-20 signs where a 20mph Southwark road crosses a 30mph Red Route (South Circular etc).

[Pocket]

20mph is absolute bananas. It is simply making the roads even more congested as the flow of traffic is being reduced to an absolute crawl. 30mph was a much more realistic speed limit.

[Bic Basher]

Forest Hill Road and Wood Vale on the Lewisham side are administered by Southwark, so the 20mph rule on both sides of the boundary.

A small section of the A2216 Lordship Lane between Melford Road and Dulwich Common is still 30mph as it's administered by TfL and part of the South Circular red route.

[monica]

I use to live on Woodvale, until a month ago, and the only thing that was slowing the traffic down, were the humps. Motorists would speed along the vale, and nobody was monitoring speed. My commute to my new home in Shirley, includes Sydenham Hill, where 20mph is actually being observed, by the motorists, and its actually a nice change, opposed to the motorists on Lordship Lane, where I work, who have clearly forgotton there is speed limit.

[James Barber]

TfL are trialling some buses that will only be able to travel up to the speed limit and not over.

No clarity over which bus routes being trialled on.

It shouldn't be long to see if 20mph on borough roads has made a material difference crash rates and severity of injuries.

[spider69]

How long? Both for TFL and Southwark roads.

If you took the accidents on Townley road it would prove nothing.

Do not think a short period of time will prove anything. You have to take things over a much longer period.

Still Southwark will jump on a figure and convert it into positive spin for a flawed policy.

[wulfhound]

20mph is absolute bananas. It is simply making the roads even more congested as the flow of traffic is being reduced to an absolute crawl. 30mph was a much more realistic speed limit.

It doesn't - if traffic isn't flowing, it isn't flowing, speed is immaterial at that point. You can fit more cars per hour along a road at 20, shorter stopping distances = closer spacing.

How long? Both for TFL and Southwark roads.

If you took the accidents on Townley road it would prove nothing.

Do not think a short period of time will prove anything. You have to take things over a much longer period.

Collision stats are reported annually by the police & DfT. By the time the next borough election rolls around, there'll be at least two years worth of Total 20mph data, which should be a reasonable basis for voters to decide - though you'd need to look back over a few years, as it's been rolled out piecemeal since the mid 2000s. The average number seriously injured has been around 100 for the past few years, I'm not sure how far it'd have to fall over two years to be statistically significant, but there are widely agreed methods for working that out.

But there is a catch, in that actual number of serious injuries is not necessarily the only thing to measure.

If you have more people walking/jogging/cycling, risk exposure goes up, so the actual number of incidents may go up even if the safety of the roads has been improved. If you make the roads 30% safer but double the number of cyclists, the expected number of injuries will go up by 40%.

Whether this is a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion, but it should probably be considered in terms of the wider public health benefits.

[kford]

Spider: "How long? Both for TFL and Southwark roads.

If you took the accidents on Townley road it would prove nothing.

Do not think a short period of time will prove anything. You have to take things over a much longer period.

Still Southwark will jump on a figure and convert it into positive spin for a flawed policy."

Exactly. They'll say it's not being adhered to, and roll out cameras etc. And still the accidents will happen, as most are not statistically caused by speed.

[James Barber]

But the severity of crashes should be reduced as they're proportional to speed.

No such thing as an accident.