Southwark plans to be 1st London council to be 20mph thru-out

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not so sure I agree on the never part of this Torben. I predict that a 20mph zone will be xity wide in the not too distant future

It will be amazing how many things will stop "coming out of nowhere" at 20mph as well..

[Torben Pieknik]

Sean - you forget Barnet, the ever present friend of the speeding motorist.

[Torben Pieknik]

Sean - you forget Barnet, the ever present friend of the speeding motorist.

[SeanMacGabhann]

To be slightly fair to motorists and Barnet, I have never been convinced by speedbumps. If nothing else, I wouldn't want to be a patient in the back of an ambulance going over those things

But ultimately it is about human behaviour and changing the "there I was driving safely as you like down the road..." which is a statement that could be applied to the scene of any accident if you go back 30 seconds

[SeanMacGabhann]

To be slightly fair to motorists and Barnet, I have never been convinced by speedbumps. If nothing else, I wouldn't want to be a patient in the back of an ambulance going over those things

But ultimately it is about human behaviour and changing the "there I was driving safely as you like down the road..." which is a statement that could be applied to the scene of any accident if you go back 30 seconds

[Cassius]

I thought speed bumps were designed so that ambulances (and transit vans) can negotiate their way over them.

[Cassius]

I thought speed bumps were designed so that ambulances (and transit vans) can negotiate their way over them.

[Xena Worried prince]

Depends on the height, design, width and state of repair of said speed bumps concerning if an ambulance (or other important vehicle like a 4*4) can go over them with out the passengers feeling a thing.

[Xena Worried prince]

Depends on the height, design, width and state of repair of said speed bumps concerning if an ambulance (or other important vehicle like a 4*4) can go over them with out the passengers feeling a thing.

[first mate]

Sean,

perhaps a bit of a kneejerk reaction on my part and yes the stats look very convincing.

Nonetheless, based only on my own experience, and as someone who adheres rigidly to speed limits for reasons of safety etc.., it is the irate driver up your bumper, weaving in and out and then overtaking at 40/50mph, in town, that is the villain. How exactly is a 20mph limit going to change that behaviour- he has already willingly broken the speed limit for 30mph?

[first mate]

Sean,

perhaps a bit of a kneejerk reaction on my part and yes the stats look very convincing.

Nonetheless, based only on my own experience, and as someone who adheres rigidly to speed limits for reasons of safety etc.., it is the irate driver up your bumper, weaving in and out and then overtaking at 40/50mph, in town, that is the villain. How exactly is a 20mph limit going to change that behaviour- he has already willingly broken the speed limit for 30mph?

[SeanMacGabhann]

As I said earlier tho first mate - it's not the villian that causes the most damage. Or even if it is, his behaviour is already "broken" and isn't changing and still needs catching.

But it's the normal "law-abiding" citizen who is killing/damaging more people on the roads - changing their behaviour is achievable because... well.. they are law-abiding, right?

[SeanMacGabhann]

As I said earlier tho first mate - it's not the villian that causes the most damage. Or even if it is, his behaviour is already "broken" and isn't changing and still needs catching.

But it's the normal "law-abiding" citizen who is killing/damaging more people on the roads - changing their behaviour is achievable because... well.. they are law-abiding, right?

[first mate]

What is the evidence for showing the speed of each vehicle that has been involved in an accident/collision,prior to impact?

[first mate]

What is the evidence for showing the speed of each vehicle that has been involved in an accident/collision,prior to impact?

[PeckhamRose]

Been riding safely and sensibly and calmly and at 30mph for 25 years Sean, and I am not damaging / killing anyone on the roads. How do you wish to change my behaviour? (!!) Since road humps, specially the bike friendly ones that cars swerve into my path to get round, and since chicanes and other daft ideas, I would say it is not necessarily the motorist it is the reactionary highway council officers who are my biggest threat. When discussing traffic lights Southwark said it is a Transport for London issue, yet Southwark is free from TfL to carry out all the other dangerous ideas.

[PeckhamRose]

Been riding safely and sensibly and calmly and at 30mph for 25 years Sean, and I am not damaging / killing anyone on the roads. How do you wish to change my behaviour? (!!) Since road humps, specially the bike friendly ones that cars swerve into my path to get round, and since chicanes and other daft ideas, I would say it is not necessarily the motorist it is the reactionary highway council officers who are my biggest threat. When discussing traffic lights Southwark said it is a Transport for London issue, yet Southwark is free from TfL to carry out all the other dangerous ideas.

[Huguenot]

The evidence is invariably scientific first mate, and there's many ways. Most involve 'energy' calculations.

[first mate]

Thanks Huguenot, but does anyone have the figures? In other words, for every crash/accident in London/Southwark, do we know the speed the car was travelling prior to impact?

[Huguenot]

I don't know about Southwark, I believe that the percentage of accidents where the vehicle was travelling in excess of the speed limit is only about 7% nationally. I can't remember my source.

Every incident that causes an injury and the police are notified will have speeds calculated.

There's a substantial difference in the severity of accidents, at 30 mph there's an 80% risk of fatal injuries to a pedestrian, at 20mph only 15% - that's a big difference.

But as I mentioned, lower speed is also about faster journeys: roads can take a heavier density of traffic at slower speeds, so ironically higher speeds mean more jams.

[SeanMacGabhann]

A large plank of the OP's argument against this was the inconsistency across London and Southwark would be the only borough, causing poor, befuddled drivers no end of problems - but having looked into this I can't find any evidence to support it. BBC London are currently talking about it being introduced London-Wide after successful implementations in other towns (Oxford being one) and a quick google shows that several stories have been published claiming this or that borough is "the one"

As for 20mph and why, this article (albeit from Galway) has several citations from international studies

20mph limits

On the same BBC London show several people have rung in voicing the usual complaints which only undermine their argument. My favourite was the one that said "my car stalls at 20mph - I couldn't follow the rules" - which is blatantly a lie unless the congestion charge has worked SO well there is never any tailbacks in London

[first mate]

Well, I don't know how useful a national calculation is, but if as the results seem to indicate, accidents have very little to do with speeding, I can see that reducing the limit to 20 does make sense. I wonder how many of the accidents are to do with lack of concentration through mobile/ipod use, both by drivers and pedestrians? I can't, however, deny the logic that whatever the reason for the accident, if a car is going slower it will cause less damage.

I am surprised by the stats though, because in my own experience the worst and most risky driving seems to come from those doing their utmost to ignore any speed limit and just get by me, the law abiding driver, seemingly at any cost. I'm sure we've all experienced the mad, tailgating driver, cursing and swearing because you refuse to go faster, and who will acclerate very rapidly at the first opportunity to overtake.

Aside form that, I have to say that I find driving a car at 20mph, on a main road like Lordship Lane, when there is less traffic, quite hard to maintain and will keep slipping slightly over. It's fine on a smaller residential street. Perhaps it is a matter of conditioning the brain, but I still think that if this rule is introduced there will be a lot of fines for people slipping over into 21-22mph.

[PeckhamRose]

It really is a matter of riding or driving at a speed appropriate to the circumstances, which may exceed 20mph but is not in itself inappropriate. ANd this is my main gripe. We are having our ability to learn common sense and use that common sense, slowly taken away from us by these blanket laws which affect everyone yet - ss people have said above - don't make us better drivers. WHat happens when we suddenly find we are now on a stretch of road in a geographical area called Lambeth or Bromley? We shall just get back to 30mph and drive as safely there. I hate that so many people think most road users are dangerous. They'er not. It's all so arbitrary and serves no real purpose other than making the unelected council officers feel all powerful.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not most road users pr. . But enough

[Huguenot]

I don't really understand the protest.

The average speed in London is 10 mph.

At a peak speed of 30, most people die. At a peak speed of 20, most people don't.

There will be 100 people alive next year, nice people, young people, that will be dead if the peak speed is 30mph. If the peak is 20mph, they'll be alive.