Peckham man guilty of murdering French students

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> As a millwall fan I'm sure you've witnessed football violence, hooliganism and racism at first hand. It is a credit to the game that people like yourself refused to bow to fringe elements and committed to remove them from the terraces.

TLS: Sadly, right back to Blackburn and Carlisle fans being attacked in the Mid-1960's. I remember the cry of "Bastards" coming from a poor Lady accompanying her bloodied b/f who only came down to watch a game of Football in peace.

DC: Incidents like Hillsborough and Heysel led to a public outcry over fan behaviour at football grounds. Coupled with increased police presence at trouble games and increased arrests, over time the rate of crime dropped.

I would also summise that a difficulty in recruiting new members, an ageing membership of crews and a new rofessionalism that occured with the advent of the Premier League were all factors in declining violence.

I understand and accept those points but it is really very simple DC.

They ran riot in those decades because The Police, generally, did not have a clue. The Police gained "intelligence". Took the necessary measures and made it much more difficult to commit crime in or near Football Stadia.

The other salient point was voiced, time after time, on a recent Sky Documentary when most "Old-Skool" hooligans said it wasn't worth the risk anymore as "5 years" was far too high a price to pay for enjoying a good ruck, basically.

The deterrent of the increased longetivity of their punishment combined with the additional Police presence were the determinant factors.

[david_carnell]

Ahh "a Sky documentary" - the ultimate source of authority on all matters concerning football hooliganism and it's continued glamourisation. It wasn't presented by Danny "Diamond Geez" Dyer was it?

Like I said Tony, I'm willing to believe that stiffer sentences had a part to play (although I doubt it tells the whole story) in this particular example but I don't think it's a useful enough example to use for society in general.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

Ahh "a Sky documentary" - the ultimate source of authority on all matters concerning football hooliganism and it's continued glamourisation. It wasn't presented by Danny "Diamond Geez" Dyer was it?

How the deuce did you know that(!)B)

Most football hooligans will feel that they have "too much to lose" these days.

Which I take to mean that the stiffer sentences now render this as not worth it, especially as many have children to support (poor souls)...

[david_carnell]

Yes, children. That's what I wads getting at when I talked about an ageing membership and difficulty in recruiting new members.

You don't fancy getting a black eye or a couple of busted ribs with a wife and nipper at home.

I would also heavily link violence, both in football and in society at large, to economic prosperity of a country. Ergo recession = hooliganism.

[Sherwick]

I think hooliganism is linked to culture too - I remember doing some research on this about 20 years ago...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

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> I think hooliganism is linked to culture too - I remember doing some research on this about 20 years ago...

Absolutely to our eternal shame.

I remember the friendly Scandinavians and Norwegians back in the day on my European Holidays and how I wished we could be more like them.

[Jeremy]

Keef Wrote:

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> Imagine every child could be tested, and we would

> know for certain that one would grow up and do

> terrible things like this murder, but they could

> be treated at a young age, and this could be

> avoided, but it would be at the tax payers

> expence.

>

> Would you rather spend that money, or just kill

> them when they were young, before they could do

> any damage?

Like a cross between "Minority Report" and "Clockwork Orange"?

I think this one is just a little too far fetched, even as a hypothetical question!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

I would also heavily link violence, both in football and in society at large, to economic prosperity of a country.

Ergo recession => hooliganism.

It doesn't help but I don't buy that, really. We have been Football hooligans since the late 1960's and we have not been in recession for 40 years.

Also our recent "austere" Decades were The 1940's/1950's and Football hooliganism was non-existent then, in this Country.

[Keef]

Jeremy, I said it was impossible. I was just interested at Daizie bringing up the tax payer's money, and wondered if this was really a concern, or whether she just wanted everything to be okay.

[Santerme]

woofmarkthedog Wrote:

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> Blimey I'm out of breath reading this lot.

>

> As YOU were ( did you like the YOU.....ohh its

> like a knuckle sandwich....dofff)

>

>

> *OO*

>

>

> *takes to his day bed*

I think it was Issac Newton who said

Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy.

[????]

the decline in Footbsll hooligsnism IS proof thst draconian punishment does work as an effective detterent.....once people started getting 5 years rather thsn a ?50 fine all but the truly mad gave it up

[Tony.London Suburbs]

???? Wrote:

the decline in Footbsll hooligsnism IS proof thst draconian punishment does work as an effective detterent.....once people started getting 5 years rather thsn a ?50 fine all but the truly mad gave it up.

Wish I had thought of saying that:-$

TLS @ 4.20PM "The other salient point was voiced, time after time, on a recent Sky Documentary when most "Old-Skool" hooligans said it wasn't worth the risk anymore as "5 years" was far too high a price to pay for enjoying a good ruck, basically. "

[????]

.....I know, I know

[david_carnell]

So what we are saying is that if only everyone was as smart as football hooligans (coupled with draconian sentencing of course) no one would commit crimes?

Feckin' genius.

[????]

nope, and i'm anti-capital punishment on moral grounds but was making a point tht detereents can work fairly simply. I'd like to see the law get as heavy handed with knife carrying as they did with football violence.

[Whynniard]

Minorities are often far more the victims of knife crime, are you suggesting that the police target these groups and go in hard ?

[????]

What are you trying to say? target the victims? If you read my post you'll see it's about the law not its enforcemenht -I'm suggesting tht the courts desl with those that carry knives in a harsher way and given an example of when thid worked in the past

[Whynniard]

well you said "I'd like to see the law get as heavy handed with knife carrying as they did with football violence." i thought you meant as in the police ! i suddenly had visions of them on horseback charging into teenagers with hoods ....cue riots !

[blah]

just to join in this happy fray, lets kill everyone in SE london now. think of the children- they deserve to have this protection

now thats sorted out, can we have a rant on paedphiles as well ?

[Jeremy]

Snorky that one's easy... force them to eat their own knobs.

[Atila Reincarnate]

This thread has gone totally off track, what the fcuk has football violence got to do with this thread pray tell?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

No! We ARE getting back on track Atila.

We are at the point where we are all agreed that Football Hooligans are the smartest and we should target the victims of crime, I think.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

We are all not far from singing from the same hymn sheet.

Some believe that rehabilitation and compassion for people with broken lives are the way forward and others, like myself, believe that certain crimes should be punishable by amputation of the right hand, administered, naturally, under anesthetic. Indeed, If the thief repents and makes restitution before the case is brought before a judge, the punishment can be reduced. Aggravated theft can be punished by cross-amputation of a hand and a foot. Flogging would be suitable and acceptable in some cases for certain crimes, as well.

Obviously, for more serious crimes some of us feel that more severe punishment is necessary.

So a bit of fine tuning and I believe we will all be of common accord.:)-D

[david_carnell]

Tony - on this rare occasion we are in agreement. A good summary.

Atila - you're anger must have blinded you to the obvious. Football violence was used as an example of tough policing and stiff sentencing as an answer to crime. Something you seem to advocate in between your spit-flecked rants.

Others feel the picture is more complicated and that draconian punishments are not the most useful way for society to progress.

Now, your opinion is always welcome but try to contribute more than a sweary version of a Sun headline or just go back to the football thread and picking fights in pub car parks.

[Atila Reincarnate]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Tony - on this rare occasion we are in agreement.

> A good summary.

>

> Atila - you're anger must have blinded you to the

> obvious. Football violence was used as an example

> of tough policing and stiff sentencing as an

> answer to crime. Something you seem to advocate in

> between your spit-flecked rants.

>

> Others feel the picture is more complicated and

> that draconian punishments are not the most useful

> way for society to progress.

>

> Now, your opinion is always welcome but try to

> contribute more than a sweary version of a Sun

> headline or just go back to the football thread

> and picking fights in pub car parks.

You really are a patronsing and condescending bell end aren't you. Do you honestly think your opinion is more worthy than anybody else's view. You must be more up yourself than I gave you credit for. To read your views anybody would think you have a monoply on reasoned argument. What a tool.