Labour Leadership

[JohnL]

I was thinking about why I supported Corbyn in the summer - It wasn't to get him as PM - it was to drag the whole of British politics to the left a bit.

George Osborne seems to be heading left fast - so in a way it worked (for what I wanted).

[Jeremy]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> George Osborne seems to be heading left fast - so

> in a way it worked (for what I wanted).

He has bowed to public pressure (rightly so IMO) but I don't see how this is directly related to Corbyn.

[Blah Blah]

It is related because it was Labour and Lib Dem peers who forced the U turn. Osborn wouldn't have changed anything otherwise.

[Jeremy]

Debatable.

[????]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is related because it was Labour and Lib Dem

> peers who forced the U turn. Osborn wouldn't have

> changed anything otherwise.

An illusion. It's because he wants to be PM and, ironically, because Labour are so weak as an opposition, he also calculated he'd get away with a massive uturn without too much damage. And the shadow chancellor proved his calculation justified within minutes.

Is it me whose completley wrong (it is possible) are all Corbynista's completley in denial about the shambles that Labour is in?- time, Oldham, the polls etc will tell but I haven't spoken to anyone outside the bubble who thinks Corybn is remotely electable or doing a good job in anything other than being different (which has some value but is overated by his 'disciples').

[????]

the Tory voter on Question Time is the one who did it really

[Blah Blah]

Please, let's give Labour peers credit where due. The two amendments voted through the Lords were presented by Labour peers. The legislation had gone through all readings in the house. Tory MPs didn't have the backbone to defy the whip.

Every political commentator agrees that Osborne miscalculated. You are swimming against the consensus view ???? and that includes the view of those who work in Parliament and have done for decades.

I think the biggest denial is within the Labour right to be honest, who seem unable to grasp why they have lost two elections - unable to grasp why traditional Labour supporters can't stomach their support for cuts. How many people have died because of welfare reforms ????. Do you need me to remind you?

Stop apologising for the cruelty of Osborne with this obsession you have with attacking Corbyn and those who support him. Corbyn and his followers are not the people delivering growing inequality. They are not the people selling off the last assets the country has. They are not the people who continue to allow the sell off of social homes whilst building no new ones. They are not the people saddling the young with impossible debts...I could go on, but you get the picture.

[Blah Blah]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the Tory voter on Question Time is the one who did

> it really

What planet are you on? Labour and the Lib Dems have a majority in the Lords. They exercised that majority with the two amendments Labour presented. Simple as that.

Umm I think you might have been joking there :D

[????]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Please, let's give Labour peers credit where due.

> The two amendments voted through the Lords were

> presented by Labour peers. The legislation had

> gone through all readings in the house. Tory MPs

> didn't have the backbone to defy the whip.

>

> Every political commentator agrees that Osborne

> miscalculated. You are swimming against the

> consensus view ???? and that includes the view of

> those who work in Parliament and have done for

> decades.

>

> I think the biggest denial is within the Labour

> right to be honest, who seem unable to grasp why

> they have lost two elections - unable to grasp why

> traditional Labour supporters can't stomach their

> support for cuts. How many people have died

> because of welfare reforms ????. Do you need me to

> remind you?

>

> Stop apologising for the cruelty of Osborne with

> this obsession you have with attacking Corbyn and

> those who support him. Corbyn and his followers

> are not the people delivering growing inequality.

> They are not the people selling off the last

> assets the country has. They are not the people

> who continue to allow the sell off of social homes

> whilst building no new ones. They are not the

> people saddling the young with impossible

> debts...I could go on, but you get the picture.

Your usual pile of emotive toss and 'friends in the know' who know all this stuff rubbish. I'm not defending anyone I am criticising someone who i firmly belive would be an absolute disaster for the future of this country and all its people. Stop implicitly implying people who don't suppoert your lah lah land economics/politics are responsible/happy for deaths - it seems all you morally certain sanctomnious lot have in the face of any criticism - you think the poor and old will benefit if the country goes bust??? I hope you didn't vote Labour after Iraq if you are taking such a morally sanctomnious position. I'm sure you didn't.

[Loz]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the Tory voter on Question Time is the one who did it really

I thought it was the Sun wot did it?

[JohnL]

Osborne has seen Labour move left and he has moved left to cover the ground. Good politically.

But we end up with everybody moving left (if Osborne wins).

[Loz]

I don't think Osborne has moved left - more like annexed it.

[DaveR]

"I think the biggest denial is within the Labour right to be honest, who seem unable to grasp why they have lost two elections - unable to grasp why traditional Labour supporters can't stomach their support for cuts"

Putting all the yah boo sucks stuff aside for a moment, I'm genuinely interested as to whether Corbyn supporters actually believe that Labour lost the last two elections because they weren't left wing enough? And if so, is it because you think people who voted for a different party would have voted Labour (presumably not Tory voters, and they got a majority last time round)? Or because lots of people who didn't vote at all would have come out if there was a real socialist govt on offer? Corbyn has hinted in one or two speeches that he believes he can get more non-voters out to vote for him, but as I've observed before, it's a pretty risky strategy.

[Blah Blah]

You are a broken record ????. All you whine on about is Corbyn and the left. They are not in power and they may never be, who knows. But the people who ARE in power are sending this country to the wall for many people, or attempting to at least. Harmen led the party to abstention on welfare reform. Corbyn has led the party to oppose it and has won in the Lords. This nonsense that only extreme free market capitalism works is just that, nonsense. It IS possible to have a fairer economy. The Tories will never deliver that.

No Dave, I don't that that is why Labour lost those elections. My view is that Labour lost under Miliband for two reasons. They allowed the Tories two years of unopposed electioneering on the economy. If you look at the Tories, they all follow a pattern of repeating a core message again and again, whatever the question and they all stick to that same core message. It's that thing of if you say something enough times, even if it is a lie, the public will believe it is the truth. It's a well know psychological tool. And they have been very disciplined in that method. You have to admire that.

But secondly Miliband just had no presence. He did have some good policies, some of which the Tories have actually implemented (stolen if you like), but he lacked the presence to get those messages through under the media obsession with the SNP and coalition deals that might be, which turned out to be not relevant anyway. When you are being squeezed by a force of nature like Sturgeon and a party very disciplined at relaying their core messages (after a head start), you have to be an incredibly strong and enigmatic person to cut through that. Miliband just wasn't that.

The election prior to that, Gordon Brown, was a combination of things. Aftermath of 2008 crisis, election faux pas etc. The thinking still is that if Brown had gone to election shortly after taking over the reigns, he would have won. He put his own personal ego before political sense imo.

I agree on your point about non voters. In the past parties have run shuttle services on election days to transport the non voters. The real question is how many non voters exist in constituencies that are marginal or can be swung by that. I'm not convinced either that they exist in large enough numbers. Assuming non voters would vote Labour anyway is a pretty big assumption. Corbyn will have to win elections on core issues like everyone else at the end of the day.

[red devil]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's that thing of if you say something enough times, even if it

> is a lie, the public will believe it is the truth.

> It's a well know psychological tool.

I'm saying nothing... :)

[Sue]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > It's that thing of if you say something enough

> times, even if it

> > is a lie, the public will believe it is the

> truth.

> > It's a well know psychological tool.

>

> I'm saying nothing... :)

Oh, go on go on go on go on :))

[Blah Blah]

What?

It's just dawned on me that I had a message from someone you seem to be singling out on another thread. Pretty poor behaviour, even for a forum. I'm not getting involved. I told her the same. I post here to pass the time. I like politics, but can just as easily not be bothered. If your intention is to drive people from a forum that should be for everyone to use, then keep going. I'm not interested.

[Loz]

Are you are talking to Sue, BB? If so, and are referring to a poster named after a type of chilli, I have to say I think the other poster kicked it off with a couple of straight-out-of-left-field posts. Quite bizarre ones.

[Jah Lush]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You are a broken record ????. All you whine on

> about is Corbyn and the left.

I have to say I only flirt mildly with this thread and gloss over most of it but I do agree wholeheartedly with this observation.

[Blah Blah]

No it's not aimed at Sue. The message I received was from someone pointing at something started by that chilli type name in another thread, none of which I understand and don't see as being anything to do with me. I just post to pass time (while getting admin done at work - shift worker). It's not a big deal, I just don't want to be pulled into what seems to be a dispute between other people. Maybe I'll give the forum a miss for a couple of days, plenty of time for my favourite character ???? to run amok. Having said that, I hear tonight's Question Time was a feisty one, so I might not hold out! :D

[Jah Lush]

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag237/jahlushhead/e078b44a-805e-4108-b006-e676640f0a64_zpsibwyepdh.jpg

[????]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You are a broken record ????. All you whine on

> > about is Corbyn and the left.

>

> I have to say I only flirt mildly with this thread

> and gloss over most of it but I do agree

> wholeheartedly with this observation.

They don't like it up them do they - social media is awash with utter garabage about Corby'n brilliance and yet a few people pushing it the other way and it's "leave us alone" "your obsessed. We don't all think he's a saint, hard as it is for you worshippers to realise that other sane, decent people think he's a disaster. On balance I'd far rather him be a disaster for the Labour Party than the country, but i'd rather not that too believe it or not.

[????]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/syria-vote-to-be-last-thing-labour-party-does-20151127104233

[Jah Lush]

I would rather have a decent, humanitarian approach to politics, an opposition with moral fibre and decency than a bunch of sell out Blairites. Let the Tory sympathisers resign.. They are not opposing anything other than the wishes of their own people... so... Good riddance.

[Loz]

The problem for the Corbynites is that they can stick rigidly to their beliefs or they can get elected, but almost certainly not both. And if you can't get elected, then you become a pressure group rather than an actual agent of change.

The more you drift away from the economic centre-right and the social centre-left the less chance you have of being elected. It's a problem that afflicts both the left and right in this country. Osborne's about turn on tax credits can be nailed down to this.

Blair had many faults, but he was, at least, a pragmatist.