Doctors striking?

[Dopamine1979]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34385045

What is the general consensus on this?

[intexasatthe moment]

Some thoughts here http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/2476090-Junior-doctors-contract-please-read

[Jeremy]

I have quite a few friends who are doctors and my Facebook has been swamped with this stuff for weeks.

15 years ago a junior doctor could survive quite happily on their salary. Yeah it was hard work with unsociable hours, but the chances are they could afford to buy or rent a decent flat and live quite comfortably. But while grad salaries in the private sector have risen nicely since then, medicine seems to have remained static. And instead of a much needed raise, salaries are now getting cut. So the anger is certainly understandable and I'm broadly supportive of a strike, however unpalatable it seems.

But at the same time, perhaps something needs to be done to address the vast disparity between junior doctor and consultants..

[Loz]

I only just found out the meaning of the phrase 'junior doctor' today. It's any doctor below 'consultant' status. You can be a junior doctor for quite a few years.

[Saffron]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have quite a few friends who are doctors and my

> Facebook has been swamped with this stuff for

> weeks.

>

> 15 years ago a junior doctor could survive quite

> happily on their salary. Yeah it was hard work

> with unsociable hours, but the chances are they

> could afford to buy or rent a decent flat and live

> quite comfortably. But while grad salaries in the

> private sector have risen nicely since then,

> medicine seems to have remained static. And

> instead of a much needed raise, salaries are now

> getting cut.

Not sure what area or level of grad education you mean. Salaries for postdocs, new lecturers & and early career researchers in STEM subjects (positions roughly equivalent to jr drs) are not great and have suffered massively from general funding cuts due to austerity and associated education "reforms" in HE.

>

> But at the same time, perhaps something needs to

> be done to address the vast disparity between

> junior doctor and consultants..

Yes, pay the jr docs more/a fair wage. They've been on a pay freeze for ages, which in real terms is a pay cut.

Remind me again what the champagne budget was for MPs? They don't seem to have taken a hit. xx

[DaveR]

Get rid of national wage scales and let employers negotiate pay locally. Most NHS staff in London are underpaid, many in the regions are overpaid, by reference to local cost of living.

[david_carnell]

All that would do is create a doctor shortage elsewhere in the country as everyone flocks back to the South East. No one wants to be a GP or A&E doc in Middlesborough. I should think a bit-better-than-necessary salary makes an essential service worthwhile.

[Jeremy]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure what area or level of grad education you

> mean. Salaries for postdocs, new lecturers & and

> early career researchers in STEM subjects

> (positions roughly equivalent to jr drs) are not

> great and have suffered massively from general

> funding cuts

Was talking about your typical private sector graduate jobs - IT, finance, consulting, accountancy, etc. Grad salaries are now much much higher than they were when I graduated in the 90s. Not the case for medics.

[Saffron]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Not sure what area or level of grad education

> you

> > mean. Salaries for postdocs, new lecturers &

> and

> > early career researchers in STEM subjects

> > (positions roughly equivalent to jr drs) are

> not

> > great and have suffered massively from general

> > funding cuts

>

> Was talking about your typical private sector

> graduate jobs - IT, finance, consulting,

> accountancy, etc. Grad salaries are now much much

> higher than they were when I graduated in the 90s.

> Not the case for medics.

Not the case for researchers either. Interesting juxtapose.

[DaveR]

"All that would do is create a doctor shortage elsewhere in the country as everyone flocks back to the South East. No one wants to be a GP or A&E doc in Middlesborough. I should think a bit-better-than-necessary salary makes an essential service worthwhile"

You pay the market rate - that's how markets work. Plenty of people want to be GPs in Middlesborough if they earn enough to live somewhere nicer.

Are you Jeremy Corbyn in disguise?

[Blah Blah]

I don't know where you get this idea that NHS staff are overpaid in other regions DaveR. All NHS staff are paid according to scale. England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland take different decisions on what those scales are but that's as far as non consensus goes.

The starting salary (in England) for a Nurse is ?21,692. For a Doctor ?22,636 (rising to ?28,076 in year 2). I can't think of anywhere in England where either of those starting salaries could be described as overpaid. The cost of housing alone makes both those salaries ordinary. Even the second year rate for Junior Doctors isn't anything to be proud of, given the years taken to train, study, and the hours that have to be put in (not to mention the cost of student fees and loans etc). Even nurses increasingly need degrees.

I am someone who has worked in the NHS for almost two decades. There is a lot of mythology around what people actually earn. If you want to talk about market rates, you'll find that actually, most NHS staff should be paid more according to their experience and skills, compared to those working comparably in the private sector. This is one of the biggest arguments against wholesale privatisation of the NHS. It would increase the cost of healthcare by five times. The NHS is actually very good value for money. An operation the costs ?2k within the NHS, costs ?10k in the private sector. And the more opportunity that becomes available in the private sector, the more difficulty we'll have keeping hold of those junior doctors for example. That's how the market really works. So you might want to re-think your position on that DaveR?

[DaveR]

"The starting salary (in England) for a Nurse is ?21,692. For a Doctor ?22,636 (rising to ?28,076 in year 2). I can't think of anywhere in England where either of those starting salaries could be described as overpaid"

You ought to get out more.

The starting salary for a nurse quoted above equates to ?1500/month net. Current average rent for a 1 bed flat in SE22 is ?1300/month (or ?1250 if you take the median). Current average rent for a 1 bed flat in Crook, in Co Durham is ?320/month.

In what universe is it fair, or a sensible use of taxpayers money, to pay the same salary for a job in those two places. It may turn out that in fact nurses in Co Durham are not overpaid at all, but the only way to find out is to have an effective market. What we'll definitely find out is that the market rate in London is higher, and hopefully as a consequence the NHS in London won't rely on hiring from overseas and agency staff.

"If you want to talk about market rates, you'll find that actually, most NHS staff should be paid more according to their experience and skills, compared to those working comparably in the private sector."

This just doesn't make any sense at all. NHS staff can take better paid jobs in private hospitals if they want to - it's the one area where there is some kind of market. And some do, and some go overseas for better paid jobs. It entirely misses the point, which is that national pay scales are inherently unfair and inefficient.

"This is one of the biggest arguments against wholesale privatisation of the NHS. It would increase the cost of healthcare by five times."

It would be good to see some evidence for this claim.

"That's how the market really works. So you might want to re-think your position on that DaveR?"

On the evidence to date, you have no idea how markets work. And you're a patronising tw@t.

[Jeremy]

Surely the NHS uses London weighting? Doesn't it?

[red devil]

From t'internet*...London weighting for 2010/11 for all doctors is ?2,162 per year for doctors non-resident in

hospital and ?602 for residents

Source - Pay in the NHS - Parliament

[Earl Aelfheah]

Junior doctors in London are underpaid. I agree that there should be more flexibility / local variation in salaries. Consultants on the other hand did extremely well out of the new consultant contracts introduced by Blair government. They There should be some redistribution IMO. Clinical Excellence Awards in particular need to be reviewed / rethought.

[Earl Aelfheah]

.... and the BMA are absolutely awful.

[Jeremy]

Not much I can disagree with there, rrr. A little redistribution would seem appropriate.

[DaveR]

By way of comparison, for lawyers in private(ly funded) practice salaries in London are anywhere between 50% more and three times more than salaries in cheaper regions. Legal aid rates are set nationally though, so lawyers (or at least partners) in firms doing publicly funded work have vastly different standards of living between London and the regions.

And to be clear, I am not suggesting that overall NHS costs would necessarily fall if there was a proper market for jobs, but you'd definitely end up with a more efficient system and I suspect a happier workforce.

[bejam]

market forces.

lol

[DaveR]

"market forces.

lol"

Not much demand for your words of wisdom - a reflection of their value?

[bejam]

Apparently so.

Keep them coming. Its good to know that there are still some out there who retain childlike innocence amidst the world weary cynicism that we adopt far too easily

[bejam]

lol

[Blah Blah]

You just can't refrain from insult can you? It's you that should get out more. Might help your mood a little.

You seem to think all nurses are single and without families to support. That's the first failure of your analysis. And if you had actually read the information I posted, I told you that the four countries of the UK have different scales. So the cost of rent in Ireland has nothing to do with the cost of rent in England. The average rent of a one bedroomed property is ?660 p/m btw.

Here is true reflection of rent to income for the whole country...

I do think it is fair to have equal starting salaries when they are that low. There is London weighting which is supposed to help but it is also why many teaching hospitals provide their own accomodation for junior doctors and nurses. Needless to say that there is not enough of this accomodation to meet demand.

I will dig out comparisons for you on costs between the NHS and private health care. There's is tons of data online (and lots of detailed reports and analysis) if you google. That isn't to say that some areas wouldn't be improved financially if they were part privatised. An example of that would be charging a small fee for doctors appointments and allowing a refund process after attendance. Millions of booked appointments are missed every year, at a cost to the tax payer, and the thinking is that it would be an incentive to reduce that. The downside is that we wouldn't want to disincentivise people from seeing a doctor when they need too either. These are debates that those of us engaged with policy makers have all the time, and finding ways to improve outcomes and efficiency is an ongoing process.

Just back to salaries. A ?21k starting salary is not huge for any graduate (and is comaparable to other both public and private sector starting salaries). Debates around pay are increasingly mirroring a race to the bottom. We are not a poor country. It's easy for me to fight for the NHS, I work in it, but one thing I do know is that people who are healthy, in body and/or mind, are more productive. So in economic terms, it's worth paying for a good health service, just as it is worth paying for good education, housing etc for all.

[DaveR]

"the cost of rent in Ireland..."

??

Co Durham is in the NE of England. North of Yorkshire, south of Newcastle.

You should get out more - seriously.

[Blah Blah]

My mistake, but it still doesn't change that your analysis of rental costs is wrong, as the table I posted shows.